Re-introducing the Iron Cross?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Believe me, nobody does that better than we ourselves. Germans are the only real experts in minimizing all german history to the years 33-45. Nobody does it better.

Yeah my cousins are like that sometimes.

I just know that according to the "rules of the playground" self deprecation often just provides ammunition to ones tormentors, or as my father used to put it: "No sense bashing yourself, thats what we have enemies for." That's one reason I'd like to see Germany reinstitute the IC for it's soldiers who have performed heroically.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But who needs a medal for valour for serving beyond duty while under fire, or courage in the face of the enemy? What enemy, btw? We probably make ourselves enemies by getting back this medal, you see. we better get a medal for extraordinary peaceful behavior.

You have enemies and being a pacifist err I mean peaceful nation only invites those who have different ideals and are willing to wage war to promote it to come against you. Peace is a wonderful thing but I always view germans being too afraid of the past to beat the snot out of the neighborhood bully.

You seem to be a reasonable person Skybird hard for you to be my enemy even if you decided to where an Iron Cross

[trekchu]

I for my part believe that we do need a medal for valor. I am also in favour of bringing the napoleonic-eara design or a slightly altered one. ( meaning that the new one would be modelled after the one we currently paint on our Panzers )


However I think that it won't go through for a variety of reasons, the main ones beeing several parties, at least "Die Linke" and the Greens beeing against it. The SPD... dunno. Other reasons are that the historical burden the cross has might be seen as to heavy by some. ( not me thats for sure, as much as I despise the Nazis, and the communists for that matter. )

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

You have enemies and being a pacifist err I mean peaceful nation only invites those who have different ideals and are willing to wage war to promote it to come against you. Peace is a wonderful thing but I always view germans being too afraid of the past to beat the snot out of the neighborhood bully.

You seem to be a reasonable person Skybird hard for you to be my enemy even if you decided to where an Iron Cross

I tried to be ironic, if you haven't noticed that - or maybe I failed miserably with my attempt.

[Onkel Neal]

Iron Cross? Why not? Anything other than the swastika, sounds ok with me.

[Letum]

They stopped issuing the Iron Cross??!?
Why?


Bring it back!

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Letum

They stopped issuing the Iron Cross??!?
Why?


Bring it back!

As has been said, Germany hates Germany. The whole world has moved on (bar certain areas of the Middle East of course) and yet they're still going through what happened sixty years back...but...if it were us, we'd probably still be going through it too. It's good to see some resemblance of the old proud Germany coming back though, pre-WW1.

[GlobalExplorer]

My answer to the question is simple: NO

And before hell freezes over there is no way we will see the Iron Cross in the Bundeswehr .. you will see it. Every couple of years these crazy stories are appearing in the news, about someone who said something and after one or two months every one has forgotten it.

We do award crosses (Bundesverdienstkreuz), and I think the bundeswehr will get something similar in the future, but that is enough.

Btw I agree that Germans are paranoid about their history, but it is certainly not the question wether we should get the Iron Cross back.

[GlobalExplorer]

And on second thought I don't know why you guys believe we are just being p.c. or something, but Iron Cross, Wehrmacht, Pour Le Merit, most Germans are just sick of this ****. This has nothing to do with our (irrational) angst of being a nation, which I also sometimes not understand, but after all that has happened, what good would it be to get these things back?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

And on second thought I don't know why you guys believe we are just being p.c. or something, but Iron Cross, Wehrmacht, Pour Le Merit, most Germans are just sick of this ****. This has nothing to do with our (irrational) angst of being a nation, which I also sometimes not understand, but after all that has happened, what good would it be to get these things back?

Because we sent volunteers around the world, and some of them got killed, evben more wounded in body and soul - and we have no symbol of recognititon for that. By giving them the ehrenmedaille we just minimize their effort by saying it means the same to us like serving at a desktop doing paperwork ten years long. If I were a soldier and would have done something for which I would be willing to accept a medal of honour, and they come with this - I would reject it, feeling offended, sorry. A medal for year-long loyalty (that's what it effectively is, not more) and a medal for courage shown under fire: it just don't compare.

Different if we would stop to shuttle our troops around for a messy mission in Afghanistan, a hosptal-building mission in SE Asia or Africa, etc. If no more troops leave Germany for foreign missions - we would not need a medal for valour indeed as long as we do not get attacked. Where there is no fighting, there is no "in the face of enemy fire".

The Bundesverdienstkreuz is no military but a civilian medal, btw. Sports men get it if being successful. Parents adopting many children. Private people engaging in social caretaking projects and free work, etc. All that is fine, okay. but it is not the same like leading a group in combat, being outnumbered 1 to 2 and still not falling back in the face of bad odds, but maybe even attacking back and winning a fight, showing an exceptionel "solo" in performance maybe. German media have given examples of texts that explained why somebody was recommended to receive the Congress medal here, the Victoria Cross there. Do the Tommies and Yanks have no shame? They use words like "fighting" and "killing" and "enemy" and "duty" and "courage" and attach it to the meaning of reward! That is not what the German army is for. We build bridges and roads and schools, you know.

THW (Technisches Hilfswerk) under arms.

Nobody should mistaken me: I am not talking about getting easy to send German troops into war. i still want the troops out of Afghanistan, since I consider the way Washington allowed the situation to detoriate as an example for the maximum of possible stupidity, and now others should jump in and lie on the bed that Bush's visionary and very competent strategic leadership has made himself, so that failure could be blamed on others as well and Ameircan troops pulling out. but as long as we send troops there for whatever the reason, the single individual displaying something of extraordinary courage deserves to receive recognition and the thank of the society that send him there. If we think that is not worth to be recognised and not worth to be thanked for - then we better should not send anybody there, becasue then we obviously think the job is nothing worth to be recognised. And that cannot be acchieved by giving him a symbol that he could also win the easy way for sitting in a BW office for sufficient years. the ehrenmedaille is not really a medal for valour, in no way. It is little more than a "time of service ribbon."

When I was a youngster, I shot and won my Mom 20 peacock feathers with 25 shots at the fairground shooting stand. That is a quote of 80%, by a novice, and I was 12 years old. You could give me a medal for that as well!

[GlobalExplorer]

I also want to give these men their recognition. But already the thought of someone walking down a german street, proudly wearing something that even resembles the Iron Cross is incredibly stupid.

I know this is hard to imagine for people from abroad, but for the Germans it should be clear what I mean.

[Skybird]

for me it is not that clear, and I also do not see why "it should be clear" to me as a German. Also, nobody mentioned that IC-owners promenade on the streets and wear their badge on their jacket. If you haven't noticed - we even do not have military parades in Germany (no objection to that from me). the going back to public vowing to the flag of recruits was a great controversy some years ago, if you remember.

In the end, such medals do not replace the obligation of the nation to train and equip soldiers as best as possible if it is intended to send them into harm'S way, and it cannot repalce the obligation to take the best possible care of them when they return. I do not blow up the importance of symbols of recognition of valour. But in the end, such a medal is not so much a private affair for the receover, but a public issue - that the society shows him that it cares, that it recognizes what the individual has done and risked, and that the society honours him because it stands behind the cause of the action, the mission, the war. seen that way we owe such a medal less to the indovidual soldier whi did something exceptionell, but we owe it to ourselves as a society. that is difficult to make clear in a self-hating society like the german one that does not miss any opportunity to reduce itself in cultural meaning and gretaness and does it's best to hate oitself, minimize itself, and reduce itself to the years 33-45.

Maybe we should focus less on the inflationary abuse of the IC by the Nazis, but on the time when it was intriduced: during the wars for freedom from French imperialism and Napoleon's megalomania. I know it is hard for Germans not to constantly focus exclusively on the Nazi time as if there has nothing else, and as if before other european nations did not act and behave as ruthless and nationalistic as the empirial Germany did. There was more - much more. And without German cultural and scientific and philosophical contributions, the world would not be what it is today.

If there should be a dedicated military medal for valour, there is no other option than it being the IC. Forming a new medal simply creates something that stands for nothing, has no tradition, and thus: no meaning. Like the Ehrenmedaille today, abotu which many jokes are running in the German armed forces - not many take it as something honest or serious. It also has no real tradition behind it. In the 80s and then again in the early 90s two "new" medals were created. To say they are being held in even not too high esteem would be a shameless exaggeration.

But I share your pessimism at least. Although these daays there is more support for a miliutary medal of valourn than ever before, it probably still is not sufficient enough to overcome german and left ressentiments. But if we reject to appreciate and pay respect for the risks opur troops do accepot when we order them around the globe - I wonder why we send them on such missions at all, if there is nothing in these mission worth to take risks for and worth to be respected.

Maybe there are questionable assignments indeed that should not be respected indeed. At least this question could be argued about, yes. But it does not chnage the fact that we send troops, and that sometimes individuals show extraordinary courage during such assignments.

Conclusions, anyone?

[GlobalExplorer]

Pre-war Germany, with its prussian military tradition does not exist anymore. WWII was too traumatic. Everyone can try turning the wheel back but it will fail.

Not saying the Iron Cross offends me in any way, but it's a thing of the past, and we can pay respect to our soldiers in a lot of different ways.

Btw the GDR already made a cult about Prussian uniforms, orders, march music, etc and it was absolutely disgusting:

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe we should focus less on the inflationary abuse of the IC by the Nazis, but on the time when it was intriduced: during the wars for freedom from French imperialism and Napoleon's megalomania. I know it is hard for Germans not to constantly focus exclusively on the Nazi time as if there has nothing else, and as if before other european nations did not act and behave as ruthless and nationalistic as the empirial Germany did. There was more - much more. And without German cultural and scientific and philosophical contributions, the world would not be what it is today.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Btw the GDR already made a cult about Prussian uniforms, orders, march music, etc and it was absolutely disgusting:

I'm pretty sure every single military in the world has uniforms, oders and march music

I think you are seated too deeply in the German general dislike of militarism