Poking holes below the waterline

[JCB]

I generally try to sink lone unarmed merchants with my deck gun whenever possible. Shooting below the waterline will send even the biggest freighter to the bottom eventually. However!: When I am shelling my foe I try to poke holes along the whole waterline. My question is this: shuld I rather consentrate on making a BIG hole amidship under the waterline or should I continue making many small holes along the ship? Anyone done some research?

And by the way: What are the armour piercing shells good for? I would never, NEVER, engage in a gunfight with something armoured, as it would probably shoot back with a bigger gun... A theory: Since HE rounds are supposed to detonate upon impact, wouldn´t the shells explode upon impact with the water (on its way to hit below the waterline) detonating harmlessly meters away from the hull. (Just imagine the hardness of the water, hitting it at a couple of hundred meters pr second...) Maybe the AP rounds, being made for penetration rather than fragmentation, will serve my needs better?

[Sailor Steve]

If you're playing the stock game, it doesn't matter where you make the holes. Put more hits on it than it has hit points and it will explode and sink, period.

If you're playing NYGM or GWX you need to spread the holes out under the waterline, to make it flood more.

The real ones didn't use armor piercing shells, or starshells. This is fixed in both supermods.

[JCB]

It doesen´t matter?! A waste of time, all of that careful aiming! Can´t run GWX because of crappy hardware...

Thanks for the fast answer anyway.

But does that mean I can sink for example a C3 by ONLY hitting one point, well above the waterline? What use is it in giving my crew orders to aim for waterline or superstructure in vanilla sh3?
If this is the case the only order that is necessary is; "hit anything - anywhere!"

[kenijaru]

Originally Posted by JCB

Since HE rounds are supposed to detonate upon impact, wouldn´t the shells explode upon impact with the water (on its way to hit below the waterline) detonating harmlessly meters away from the hull....
Maybe the AP rounds, being made for penetration rather than fragmentation, will serve my needs better?

what you say makes sense, makes a lot of sense

but if you hill the side of a merchant with AP, the shell will probably slip through the ship like a hot knife through warm butter and explode harmlessly in the air or water. (thats the same problem argentine pilots had in the malvinas/falklands, the bomb fuse was delayed to protect the airplane from the blast but that made the bombs go through the british destroyers, with some "lucky" exeptions.)*

HE shells arent ment to throw sharpnel, but to open big holes on whatever they touch, the actual sharpnel they throw is a secondary effect (or an evolutionary leftover, like our coxis or apendix) :hmm: anyhow, you dont need sharpnel as you are not trying to kill the crew.

just shoot with HE and then use external camera to make sure you are leaving holes on the bugger.


*please, lets not start a discusion about that, specialy not here, it was just an example that poped into my head.

[Hanomag]

Oh and BTW...

Welcome aboard Kaluen JCB!!

[Pisces]

Since each ship has it's weakzones, a torpedo hit or (a couple of) well aimed shell hits there might have the same effect of early sinking. And by well aimed I mean those zone's in the recognition manual that show up in stock SH3 (under certain conditions). This won't be as easy in GWX/other mods as they removed those zones showing up in the recognition book, and also changed the damage model altogether. And maybe the ships have different weakspot locations in them. But it's worth a try finding them in stock SH3 and shelling them instead of torpedoing.

[Uncle Goose]

Well, since a ship's hull is quite thick those AP might come in handy. However, in the real deal they carried HE and incendiary munition (Kretschmer made a note on the use of incendiary ammunition to set a ship ablaze so the U-boats carried not only HE ammunitions)

[DirtyACE]

When firing torpedos, one aims for the weak points in the ship such as the engine/boiler room, fuel tanks, the propellers, or ammunition bunkers. Would aiming for those same places apply to the deck gun?

[JCB]

Thanks for welcome! Nice forum indeed! :-)

So from what I´ve learnt so far, naval gunnery in stock SH3 works like this (please correct me if I´m wrong):
- Ships don´t sink because of flooding primarily, but because I score a certain amount of hitpoints that is higher than the shiptype in question can withstand. If I hit the bow, well above the waterline, hitting no critical parts, the ship will sink regardless if only I hit it with enough shells.
- There are weak points that I can hit repeatedly for inflicting more damage, sinking the ships faster.

If I combine these two I figure it is best to hit the hull right under, or slightly forward of the funnel, repeatedly, until the ship is destroyed. You know - I´m slightly disapointed, but hey, it´s still a great game!

As to the HE vs AP sidenote: I figure the deck gun in SH3 is much simpler to aim than in real life. Perhaps the subs didn´t bring AP since it wasn´t probable that the gun crew would be able to hit consistently below the waterline anyway. Since the AP round would be much less damaging than HE rounds, unless it actually makes holes under the waterline, it may seam rational to bring only rounds that will do the greatest amount of damage to the biggest target (the parts of the ship that is above the waterline) But what do I know...

[kenijaru]

i'm prety sure it DOES

shoot just below the waterline of a target, then press "." or "," and watch for yourself if you indeed scored any hits.

[Sailor Steve]

Or if you're playing with external views of, you'll still get a telltale: sometimes you'll see a splash very close to the target, and then a hit. Sometimes the hit will even be obviously submerged. A beautiful thing.

[DirtyACE]

You can also use the UZO to lock onto the ship and observe all the hits.

[JCB]

Yes, I have seen many a hit below waterline with HE in my games. But does anyone know if it actually was possible IRL for a HE round to penetrate 2-3 meters of rock hard water (at the speed we are talking here...) and successfully explode upon impact with the hull? :hmm: My gut tells me that it won´t work as it does in game. However; it is still a game, so it doesn´t really matter. Any naval ordanance experts here? If my suspicions are true I will bring AP rounds for waterline shots as flavour.

[Hondo314]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If you're playing the stock game, it doesn't matter where you make the holes. Put more hits on it than it has hit points and it will explode and sink, period.

I'm not convinced this is the case. When I have focused my shots on the engine room to approximate a torpedo, small merchants have continued sailing relatively unaffected until getting the "she's going down" message. They sink quickly thereafter. However, when I spread my shots to multiple compartments, the ships roll over on the side I targeted before they sink. They tend to roll before getting the "she's going down message" but once they start rolling, they're as good as gone. Seems I have been able to conserve HE rounds doing this. Haven't done a real experiment though.

[bobchase]

Originally Posted by JCB

Yes, I have seen many a hit below waterline with HE in my games. But does anyone know if it actually was possible IRL for a HE round to penetrate 2-3 meters of rock hard water (at the speed we are talking here...) and successfully explode upon impact with the hull? :hmm: My gut tells me that it won´t work as it does in game. However; it is still a game, so it doesn´t really matter. Any naval ordanance experts here? If my suspicions are true I will bring AP rounds for waterline shots as flavour.

JCB,
In my experience HE shells don't usually explode when they strike the water. (At least not the Russian and Chinese ones.) Whether it explodes when it hits the hull depends on the downward angle of the shot and the depth when it strikes the ship. I used to hear the 105's bounce off the hull all the time. You'd hear a big 'Ker-Plunk' followed by a 'ting' when the shell hit the hull and, maybe, a delayed 'boom' if it did actually explode. However, most of these rounds were shot near maximum range - not close in like your deck gun is. So the angle of the strike on us was nearly vertical. If you were unlucky enough to be on deck when they came in you'd see a 80' high plume of water followed by a huge 'KER - PLUNK'.

Bob