Quest for Realism

[Berinhardt]

I really appreciate the attention to detail and historical accuracy of SH4, but while researching some of the subs I was surprised to find how much different the actual mission results really are.

For example, on any one of the campaigns, I leave Pearl Harbor, refuel a bit at Midway and head into the Pacifc Theater - typically either for my patrol area or a known Japanese shipping lane. Sinking 8-10 ships in a few days/weeks before my fuel runs low or I run out of fish doesn't seem to be a problem.

However, when I look at historical mission records on http://fleetsubmarine.com such as the Threshers http://fleetsubmarine.com/ss-200.html or Tambors http://fleetsubmarine.com/ss-198.html I see 40-50 day missions with no kills. A great mission seems to be +50 days with 4 - 6 kills. This seems really odd to me, I expected it to be a bit higher. (Taking nothing away from the real crews and captains - they have all my respect)


So, what makes the game so different from the historical battle?

Is it:

1. Target density - does the game model or spawn +400-500% more shipping than the historical record?
2. Unrealistic sensors - Am I just detecting more ships visually and via sonar and radar than is realistic?
3. Unrealistic weapons - are the game torpedoes or ship damage modeling significantly different or just plain unrealistic. It doesn't seems so, especially after the 1.4 patch thickened the hulls on surface ships.
4. Other ???

Is there a mod that remediates issues #1 (if it is the contributing factor)

Any thoughts?

[Schlippittz]

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems like weapon reliability might have played a huge part in that. I was just reading the patrol history of the USS Tuna the other day, and it seemed to be filled with reports of firing fish only to have them run too deep or fail to detonate. I know how frustrating duds are in a computer simulation, I can only imagine how angry these crews must have gotten after hours (and sometimes days) of trying to set up a shot, only to have your main offensive weapon repeatedly fail on you.

[Linavitch]

Originally Posted by Berinhardt

Is there a mod that remediates issues #1 (if it is the contributing factor)

Nail, On, The, Hit, Head.

Check the mods forum for more info on more realistic traffic spawning.

[Powerthighs]

Yes, its primarily that the target density in the stock game is way too high. Check out the Run Silent Run Deep mod (RSRD) stickied in the mods section of the forum.

A couple of other things: the deck gun is very overpowered in stock, and the torpedoes aren't nearly as unreliable than they were in the first half of the war. Various mods adjust this to various degrees. The actual torpedo failure rates were so high that you may not want to play at absolute realism; it might drive you crazy.

[Sailor Steve]

Yes and no. Subsims (and flight sims, for that matter) have always given the player a huge advantage in both encounter rate and difficulty.

1. Try the Run Silent, Run Deep campaign. Targets are reduced by a huge amount, and most players are in love with it.

2. Try Real Fleet Boat or Trigger Maru. Sensors in both are much more realistic, and you will find the going a little rougher.

3. Pretty unrealistic. Again, either of the two mods mentioned above will add greatly to your misery - many more torpedo failures, torpedoes running deep, the ocassional super destroyer who you will come to hate. Basically, you can experience all the frustration and boredom of the real thing.

4. Try manual targetting. There are mods which let you use an actual model of the whiz-wheels to figure out the attack solutions.

All-in-all SH4 (and SH3) are becoming more and more the sims they were meant to be. Of course people can still play them as "just a game" if they like it that way.

[Linavitch]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Of course people can still play them as "just a game" if they like it that way.

Surely you jest Sir?

[AVGWarhawk]

If you want a taste of how it was (given what the game can do) load up RFB or TM like Sailor Steve suggested. Then get RSRD for historical traffic. You will spend days without a sighting and you will have a bilge full of bad torpedoes. Normally I bag around 2-3 ships per patrol. A normal patrol for me lasts 30-45 days depending on how good the fishing is

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

4. Try manual targetting. There are mods which let you use an actual model of the whiz-wheels to figure out the attack solutions.

If you are going to do that, might I suggest you actually make the wheels.

You can get the files at http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attackfinder/index.htm

Here is a mini-version I made of the Omnimeter side using cardstock and inkjet transparency:



As for some patrols going out and not getting anything, I'm about halfway through "Silent Victory" by Clay Blair, and it seems quite a number of captains were relieved in the first part of the war because they were too cautious and didn't take opportunities to attack, or they attacked using a sonar only approach which pretty much guarantees a miss, even with good torps.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Berinhardt

For example, on any one of the campaigns, I leave Pearl Harbor, refuel a bit at Midway and head into the Pacifc Theater - typically either for my patrol area or a known Japanese shipping lane.

There's part of the problem too. With historical hindsight and a convoy route map you known where the shipping lanes are. It took months of the real war to suss that out. The straits between Luzon and Formosa should have struck all back at Pearl as an obvious bottleneck but according to Clair Blair in Silent Victory it often went unpatrolled.

[Berinhardt]

Thank you all for the great responses!

I will load RSRD on my next campaign. I've only had SH4 for a few weeks now, and need a bit more time to work on manual targeting and get my "sea legs" ;-) I'm looking forward to the additional challenge!

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

There's part of the problem too. With historical hindsight and a convoy route map you known where the shipping lanes are. It took months of the real war to suss that out. The straits between Luzon and Formosa should have struck all back at Pearl as an obvious bottleneck but according to Clair Blair in Silent Victory it often went unpatrolled.

Another reason is that the player is not bound by actual Pre-WW2 doctrine. The game as written sends you to where merchant traffic abounds (even with the mods) but in real life many many patrols were wasted chasing down men-of-war or patroling where the Brass thought warships were hiding.

It wasn't until later on in the war that the notion of a blockade of the home islands took hold and the idea of the submarine as a weapon against warships was discarded.

JCC

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I concur using RSRDC greatly reduces the chances of running into the enemy. In fact I was lucky to get 2 ships during a 35-day patrol.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by DavyJonesFootlocker

I concur using RSRDC greatly reduces the chances of running into the enemy. In fact I was lucky to get 2 ships during a 35-day patrol.

Be more aggressive.

[tomoose]

I spent three looooong patrols and apart from evading some enemy warships came up empty each time. I experienced the frustration similar to the real life skippers (which I'm sure is the intention of TM + RSRD). On the next patrol near the Sea of Ohkotsk I racked up a whopping 4 merchants and was extremely satisfied with that.

If you want more of a simulation then the mods as suggested above are highly recommended. If you want more of a game, less of a challenge then stay with stock 1.4.

[Powerthighs]

By the way, take some time with stock SH4 and get used to manual targeting before you apply the suggestions above. The higher traffic is a nice way to get the training you need to make the shots when it counts later.