Is "Show Dead Platforms" a "cheat"? - Page 3

Blacklight · 01-24-08, 12:46 PM

When I play multiplayer, I always have "Show Dead Platforms" and "Show Truth" turned off completely.
Usually when I play single player, I have them turned off too but occasionally, I have "Show Dead Platforms" on for the hell of it. It depends on my mood.

It is nice to have it turned off and not see exactly how much damage you did till the end of the scenario though. It's like a total mystery until the very end !

Molon Labe · 01-24-08, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanny

I mean "Show dead platforms" or "3D view" bring very little or completely no help to you during gameplay.

Just a few examples off the top of my head: Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort.. It identifies the platform destroyed when sonar will usually not provide you with a solid classification, which can give you an idea who is left. It can tell you the location of platforms killed by your teammates or AI which you may have been completely unaware of. All of this information has profound implications on tactical choices that have to be made and cannot be dismissed as "very little" help.

OneShot · 01-24-08, 02:00 PM

Warfare, be it Air, Land or Sea is mainly about information ... those who have the information about their enemies numbers, type, whereabouts and so on have the advantage ... if you lack this information you have a serious disadvantage because even in our High Tech world you have to "see" (i.e. know where it is and where it will be when your weapon of choice is there to meet it) something before you can hit it.

Now DW simulates this "information warfare" quite good ... you have most of the toys available that you would use in RL. But you don't have all of them and even those which you can use sometimes dont offer the same high fidelity as their RL counterpart. For example the fact that your Sonar Operator would probably be able to tell you if he hears the sounds of a sub which is sinking (unintentionally) and dead. Or all the other tidbits of info you might get from him (sub has stopped their screw, engines are dead ... whatever).

The walkaround for this shortcomming is in my eyes the option to show "Dead Platforms". To me this is my sonar guy telling me that I just hit the target (or whatever) for good and that I can now concentrate on something else. Thats the only information I get from this option and I don't consider it as a cheat.

Besides ... there is only one way to achieve ultimate realism ... enlist in the navy of your country, do the training and serve on the real deal (be it above or below the waves). Everything else is a simulation and thus always at least one step short of being realistic.

@ML : Everything you have mentioned might be obtained in RL through your own sensors (if a sub is blown up in my neighborhood I hear it, as well as the torps who have brought its demise about) or by other ways of information gathering either in real time or time delayed (Ok, small concession here ... the information which would only be available with a time delay is in this case - meaning as instant information in the game - "unrealistic").

Molon Labe · 01-24-08, 04:44 PM

In the case of the long range missile strike, sensor data will certainly not be available. In the others it may be available depending on conditions, but it's up to the player to be gathering that data. Usually information is lacking at the moment the shooting starts, it's not worth risking the boat to get that additional information. Once you've been engaged, it is very difficult to maintain the limited situational awareness that you started with.

EDIT: to be a little more practical I'll get more specific. You're in an FFG, tasked to protect a merchant convoy during wartime. Intel tells you that PRC subs 367 and 368 are out of port and may be in your operating area. You got lucky and found one with the helo and sank it. Where do you look for the next one? If you sank 368, you know the best defense is to collapse, it won't be a threat unless it gets within about 5nm. If you sank 367, you need to patrol away from the merchants aggressively because if it detects you first, you die. There's no way in hell ownship sensors will provide that data for you.

Even the difference between having an Akula-I(i) or an Akula-II around can have a significant effect on asset deployment, again, you're not going to know the difference from ownship sensors, at least not until you get DEMON data or an active fix.

Stanny · 01-25-08, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort...

Yes it does,but it does not show you how many ships are there within this escort.Still,you have to get down to Sonar and start working to detect or check whether there's anything left in this escort.So,there is a flip side of the coin.

Cyklop · 01-25-08, 03:13 AM

I don't think this is realistic but I don't see this as a cheat either.
And after all, it's just a game...

Molon Labe · 01-26-08, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort...

Yes it does,but it does not show you how many ships are there within this escort.Still,you have to get down to Sonar and start working to detect or check whether there's anything left in this escort.So,there is a flip side of the coin.

That's not a flip side, it's another variable that may be either known or unknown (you shouldn't assume that it is unknown, that's what tasking/intel messages are for, and there is also the limitation that comes from a limited supply of missions to choose from). And it doesn't matter. What matters is that you have piece of the puzzle that you shouldn't have. Maybe maybe you can put it to good use now, maybe you can put it to good use after getting another peice, but either way you've still cheated to get yourself ahead.

Stanny · 01-26-08, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

That's not a flip side, it's another variable that may be either known or unknown (you shouldn't assume that it is unknown, that's what tasking/intel messages are for, and there is also the limitation that comes from a limited supply of missions to choose from). And it doesn't matter. What matters is that you have piece of the puzzle that you shouldn't have. Maybe maybe you can put it to good use now, maybe you can put it to good use after getting another peice, but either way you've still cheated to get yourself ahead.

Anyway,I still think that everything depends on your sonar skills only.And "show dead platforms" is usually a proof of what you already know,if you work professionally at your stations.For example yesterday I picked up a Victor class on a towed array under ice,worked up just a perfect TMA solution and fired two MK-48 ADCAP torpedoes at her (one was set for active,other had passive homing sensor).I knew that Victor had very few chances to survive,as I attacked her at a rather short range.Of course,I brought her down and saw that it was a Victor-III on NAV station as "show dead platforms" was turned on.So,that option just narrowed the narrowband sonar classification,and nothing else.

01-27-08, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyklop

I don't think this is realistic but I don't see this as a cheat either.
And after all, it's just a game...

Its not a game, its a SIMULATOR... :p

Captain Nemo · 01-28-08, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qppralke

Dead platforms - how is it modelled now ? Do they still disapear after certain time ? I remember in SC dead platforms saved my sub a couple of times - just because torpedoes locked on to them.

I remember I used to look for the wreck after mission using active and Hi Freq.

Why did Sonalysts make wrecks disappear in DW? Like you I have evaded incorming torps in SC by sailing close to wrecks in shallow waters and also my torps have been pulled off course by wrecks. I am somewhat perplexed why Sonalysts modelled wrecks differently in DW.

Nemo

Kazuaki Shimazaki II · 01-28-08, 06:49 AM

Possibly because modeling wrecks takes a small but measurable amount of computer power, and they decided that the extra realism wasn't worth it after a small amount of time. Not saying they are right to do so, but it might be what they're thinking...

Cyklop · 01-28-08, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imamar

Its not a game, its a SIMULATOR... :p

Right, I'm sorry to have forgotten this and thank you for pointing this out.
DW is a SIMULATOR which simulates the well known and documented phenomenon of disappearing shipwrecks :-)

View Poll Results: Do you consider the "Show Dead Platforms" filter a cheat?
Yes	33	45.21%
No	30	41.10%
Only in Multiplayer	10	13.70%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

01-24-08, 12:46 PM	#31
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	When I play multiplayer, I always have "Show Dead Platforms" and "Show Truth" turned off completely. Usually when I play single player, I have them turned off too but occasionally, I have "Show Dead Platforms" on for the hell of it. It depends on my mood. It is nice to have it turned off and not see exactly how much damage you did till the end of the scenario though. It's like a total mystery until the very end ! __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !"

01-24-08, 02:00 PM	#33
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Warfare, be it Air, Land or Sea is mainly about information ... those who have the information about their enemies numbers, type, whereabouts and so on have the advantage ... if you lack this information you have a serious disadvantage because even in our High Tech world you have to "see" (i.e. know where it is and where it will be when your weapon of choice is there to meet it) something before you can hit it. Now DW simulates this "information warfare" quite good ... you have most of the toys available that you would use in RL. But you don't have all of them and even those which you can use sometimes dont offer the same high fidelity as their RL counterpart. For example the fact that your Sonar Operator would probably be able to tell you if he hears the sounds of a sub which is sinking (unintentionally) and dead. Or all the other tidbits of info you might get from him (sub has stopped their screw, engines are dead ... whatever). The walkaround for this shortcomming is in my eyes the option to show "Dead Platforms". To me this is my sonar guy telling me that I just hit the target (or whatever) for good and that I can now concentrate on something else. Thats the only information I get from this option and I don't consider it as a cheat. Besides ... there is only one way to achieve ultimate realism ... enlist in the navy of your country, do the training and serve on the real deal (be it above or below the waves). Everything else is a simulation and thus always at least one step short of being realistic. @ML : Everything you have mentioned might be obtained in RL through your own sensors (if a sub is blown up in my neighborhood I hear it, as well as the torps who have brought its demise about) or by other ways of information gathering either in real time or time delayed (Ok, small concession here ... the information which would only be available with a time delay is in this case - meaning as instant information in the game - "unrealistic"). __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

01-24-08, 04:44 PM	#34
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	In the case of the long range missile strike, sensor data will certainly not be available. In the others it may be available depending on conditions, but it's up to the player to be gathering that data. Usually information is lacking at the moment the shooting starts, it's not worth risking the boat to get that additional information. Once you've been engaged, it is very difficult to maintain the limited situational awareness that you started with. EDIT: to be a little more practical I'll get more specific. You're in an FFG, tasked to protect a merchant convoy during wartime. Intel tells you that PRC subs 367 and 368 are out of port and may be in your operating area. You got lucky and found one with the helo and sank it. Where do you look for the next one? If you sank 368, you know the best defense is to collapse, it won't be a threat unless it gets within about 5nm. If you sank 367, you need to patrol away from the merchants aggressively because if it detects you first, you die. There's no way in hell ownship sensors will provide that data for you. Even the difference between having an Akula-I(i) or an Akula-II around can have a significant effect on asset deployment, again, you're not going to know the difference from ownship sensors, at least not until you get DEMON data or an active fix. __________________ Last edited by Molon Labe; 01-24-08 at 04:55 PM.

01-25-08, 03:13 AM	#36
Cyklop Seaman Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: visual, aural and nasal Posts: 37 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I don't think this is realistic but I don't see this as a cheat either. And after all, it's just a game...

01-28-08, 06:49 AM	#41
Kazuaki Shimazaki II Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,140 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Possibly because modeling wrecks takes a small but measurable amount of computer power, and they decided that the extra realism wasn't worth it after a small amount of time. Not saying they are right to do so, but it might be what they're thinking...