Point of new Silent Hunter

[silentrunner]

A large topic among sub sim gamers is that of the creation of a new Silent Hunter. But while SH4 was a good game it did not match up to the capabilities of SH3' what went wrong? I think that SH3 had an overall better engine tobegin with, amd with mods like GWX it is almost a totally different game from vanilla SH3. If Ubisoft created another game with the capabilities of GWx and SH3 they would most likely make alot of money. They would also risk creating another SH4 a game that tried to match up to the capabilities as SH3 but just didn't have as good of an overall design. I would like to get your thaughts about wether a new SH game should be made or if they should just keep upgrading SH3. Keep in mind that as the game is further upgraded more people are buying it so there sales are still going up.

[kenijaru]

great supermods will be released for SH4 too.... eventually
and when that happens it'll probably surpass SH3.

[CCIP]

Define "better" in this case.

I fail to see the point, especially since SHIV's engine is the same engine, only with improvements. SHIV, in my view, is a much better game and a much better engine out of the box than SHIII, and fixed many things that were amiss in SHIII.

There are only two reasons to prefer SHIII over SHIV: 1) the fact that SHIV's mod development cycle is still in an early stage while SHIII is close to peak; 2) it is not an Atlantic sim, and some just like the Atlantic.

Elsewhere, while SHIV may have produced a few new pet peeves for experienced SHIII players (like the crew not being as responsive when clicked on for example), objectively speaking it IS the development that was needed for the SHIII engine. Its only real fault is that it was released a few months early.

As for "upgrading SHIII" - two words - "dream on". We're lucky SHIV is getting treated with that U-boat expansion, even. Otehrwise you're more likely to see Ubi make a new Atlantic sim at this point than patch SHIII - if you want the money side of this, they'd much rather spend money on development of a new $60 game than on upgrading an old (from their point of view - long-obsolete) game that costs no more than $10 a pop now.

[Adriatico]

The optimal project could be much simplier than previously thought...If develpers team could reach a common ground with GWX team - it would take a couple of months to "inject" SHIV graphic engine (even improved one) into present accumulated achievements of WolfPack... Anyway, GWX 2.0 lacks only a modern graphics improvements expected in some 2008 simulation release... as they were permanently limited by the ancient graphic engine.Such a SHV would not be "three years project"... and I would be the first one to pay such a DVD title... and many, many more gamers. Even without significant marketing investments...

[rik007]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Define "better" in this case.

I fail to see the point, especially since SHIV's engine is the same engine, only with improvements. SHIV, in my view, is a much better game and a much better engine out of the box than SHIII, and fixed many things that were amiss in SHIII.

There are only two reasons to prefer SHIII over SHIV: 1) the fact that SHIV's mod development cycle is still in an early stage while SHIII is close to peak; 2) it is not an Atlantic sim, and some just like the Atlantic.

Elsewhere, while SHIV may have produced a few new pet peeves for experienced SHIII players (like the crew not being as responsive when clicked on for example), objectively speaking it IS the development that was needed for the SHIII engine. Its only real fault is that it was released a few months early.

As for "upgrading SHIII" - two words - "dream on". We're lucky SHIV is getting treated with that U-boat expansion, even. Otehrwise you're more likely to see Ubi make a new Atlantic sim at this point than patch SHIII - if you want the money side of this, they'd much rather spend money on development of a new $60 game than on upgrading an old (from their point of view - long-obsolete) game that costs no more than $10 a pop now.

I think there will come a SH-V version but it is not the right moment to start planning it. Ubi first will launch the add-on and after that it will be a logical step to start planning SH-V which should be in the Atlantic. The Atlantic theatre is much popular than the Pacific and offers the potential for Ubi moreover as within a few years the community will start complianing about the outdated graphics.

[Gezoes]

Well, one way or the other... I bet we will see the, superior, SHIV graphics in the Atlantic. Until that time though... SH3 it is. I doubt there will be a SH5 in the near future, after SH4 more or less bombed with the fans. That divide has nothing to do with graphics however. It's sound and gameplay.

SH4 is a non-immersive sim, complete with things like a horrible interface and little things like switching the F-keys around. I hate when devs change something that was nearly PERFECT. If that can be overhauled, SH4 is the platform to build on.

Until that time, give me the second skin that is SH3 any day

[Von Manteuffel]

IMHO the economics are against any forseeable new WWII submarine release, apart from patches and the promised "U-Boats in SH4" update. As has been said, SH3 off the shelf is now a remaindered item, available for very little and sold to clear existing stock. We should also remember that, in the minds of Ubisoft, the modding-community is "doing very nicely thank you" with developing SH3 - to the point where, I suspect - they see absolutely no need to invest any more time, or money in it.

In certain respects, SH4 was a step forward and, really, can be regarded as a development of SH3 - just as Medieval Total War was a development of Rome Total War. Apart from tweaks and a one-hit upgrade which will generate some interest / sales; Ubisoft may well regard subsims as "job done."

Pooters and graphics capabilities are improving and developing at an incredible rate, but I submit there has to be a better reason to spend profits on existing products than the fact that newer, faster and better graphics-cards and screens are available.

My money would be on any future submarine sim. - and there has to be a question-mark over the global level of interest / profit in submarine sims at all - but if it does happen, I think it will either be part of a massive new World War naval simulation, or, as with the Call of Duty franchise, be very modern, involving nuclear subs as well as diesel-electric boats

[bigboywooly]

Aye with the planned Indian Ocean update from Ubi tis a step forward into the Atlantic
I must admit I hate the SH4 interface with a passion so dont play it that often
Catch 22
If I did play more often I would get used to it

Besides OLC and others have altered the SH3 interface around hugely so no doubt the SH4 one could be tweaked also

If I am honest I dont see any more SH releases from Ubi in the near future
Maybe another addon with say Brit or Russian subs or 2 addons :hmm:
Thats easy for them to do as groundwork is already done and keeps the game alive

[xristoskaiti]

repair the big errors sh3.exe scene.dat the night the batteries and the hostile AI AND WILL BECOME a NEW GAME!!!!

[rik007]

SH-III was not bad business for Ubisoft else we would never have had SH-IV. After the add-on next year everything is possible. I'm convinced the Atlantic theatre is the most popular and we will see that it will remain interesting for software developers. Have some patience and we will see what will happen in the next few years. By the way next year is almost here... have a good 2008!

[Oldgamer48]

There's always the possibility of a more modern sub sim, possibly set in the Cold War, like Microprose's old Red Storm Rising (based on the Tom Clancy novel of the same name). But such a sim has to have an immersive environment similar to SH3, or it will go nowhere.

Also, it has to be realistic. What do I mean by that?

I worked with some people of very low IQ in a sheltered workshop. Among the many things there to stimulate them were computers.

One of the things I noticed was a young man whose IQ was 68, who was going quite far into the campaign of Red Storm Rising. I thought that was marvelous. Then, one day, I decided to watch him play.

He would bring his sub to the surface. Yes, he surfaced the boat! Then, he ran it up to flank speed, turned on all of the sensors, and started launching missiles and torpedoes. When the inevitable counterattack came, he launched countermeasures and maneuvered wildly.

I watched him destroy a complete Soviet surface task force, with six ships, in this manner. Needless to say, it wasn't particularly realistic!

Much more is needed than eye-popping graphics to make a subsim realistic ...

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by rik007

SH-III was not bad business for Ubisoft else we would never have had SH-IV. After the add-on next year everything is possible. I'm convinced the Atlantic theatre is the most popular and we will see that it will remain interesting for software developers. Have some patience and we will see what will happen in the next few years. By the way next year is almost here... have a good 2008!

I have to say though, for all the hopes I see of going back to the Atlantic shortly - the features of the add-on suggest to me that the developers are actually edging towards a surface combat sim instead.

However it's definitely likely that with the addon + modding, an Atlantic campaign will be ported over to the new engine.

[FIREWALL]

IMHO I think UBI will watch how many logon to SH4 to play the surface ships to see if maybe they want to try a Destroyer Command type of game that will work with SH-4.

And a little off thread.


I would also like to thank CCIP for one of the first SH-4 mods :KEY COMMANDS so it made it so we didn't have to learn a new key map.

This was especially good for us that had both SH-3 and SH-4 installed.

[candy2500]

i don't know when it will come but i don't think they will ignore the fact that so many people are still playing and love the U boat experience..just the other day i was trying to look for a old mod and found it on a Russian sight there still playing SH3, there playing this game in Germany, Russia, England, USA, Australia, Mexico and the list goes on, still playing, still enjoying the game, and a lot of gamers that play manly first person shooters and sports games on there boards still have long threads and topics about every mod every new ship that is posted on the subsim boards.... which theater is more popular, its no contest..

[GoldenRivet]

i think that the best investment any game designer could make is to listen to the community.

there are hundreds of great "what if" type ideas roaming around this community in particular. Every week somone posts a "what would you like to see in SH5?" thread and there are some great ideas, some terrible ideas and some out right impossible ideas... and the game designer who could figure out how to put the most number of those ideas into the next release, wins. period.

Ubi screwed up with silent hunter 4 because of two key elements.

FIRST: they were trying to make SH4 appeal to a wider audience by giving it more eye candy. big mistake. traditionally fans of the sim genre enjoy eye candy as a bonus... but are more concerned about the accuracy and realism of the sim. for example... Microsoft Flight Simulator X looks great... but more importantly it simulates the flight characteristics of various aircraft quite well. How successful do you think FSX would be if all of the airplanes flew like crap and the control options were limited to just a couple of items? it would bomb!

SECOND: They rushed it. pure and simple some big wig at ubi wanted to concentrate on other projects and SH4 likely was pushed to the bottom of the list and given some unreasonable or impossible release date.

all the eye candy in the world is pointless if the game is not stable or unreliable or filled with bugs... an early release is pointless if your program doesnt work! ask any GWX team member they will say the same thing verbatum

if any sofware developer out there wants to turn the subsim genre around - regardless of whether or not it is a WW1 WW2 or Cold War sim, they need to follow some simple steps.

Step 1: Make an announcement that a hot new sub game is in the works - thats it. No details, no release dates, no hints as to the type of game. COMPLETE SECRECY

Step 2: This is a big one!!! Listen to the community forums. see what the fans want. observe their ideas. and pack as much of them into the sim as possible!!!

Step 3: spend as long as it takes to develop/test the game so that it can be released in top form.

Step 4: only when confidence is high that a finished product is only a couple of months away... start announcments, release screen shots, run advertisments in magazines and online and maybe on TV. perhaps even release a demo. BUT ONLY WHEN YOU ARE CLOSE TO ABSOLUTE COMPLETION!

Step 5: release date.

There will probably be another addition to the Silent Hunter series. but it might take a while for that to come about.

but i think the lesson ubi (or anyone else) should learn from SH4... is listen to the fans of the genre. One primary example... we all wanted more 3d compartments - they gave us less.

SH4 looks great... but as far as sims go it was a train wreck! it took a few patches and a lot of mods from the community to fix ubi's mistakes and exemptions and it shouldnt be like that.

Lets compare the silent hunter 3 and 4 to cars...

SH3 was a hot new car that everyone wanted, it performed well, it handled nicely, and it was sporty and fast... it was one of the best late model cars out there. It was a nice ride to begin with and didnt need more, but some speed freaks made it cooler by adding powder coated headers. flowmaster exhaust. bored the engine, and added some neat tires and wheels to it. these mods - though cool - were OPTIONAL.

Then came silent Hunter 4... it was the shiniest and most desirable of the new sports cars! it looked great and was a chick magnet and was sure to blow previous models out of the water! but when people got it home they discovered that they HAD to modify it just to make the damned thing drivable!

in short - when i made the leap from SH2 to SH3 i was like "Whoaaa!!" blown away...

when i made the leap from SH3 to SH4 i was like "oh"

Silent Hunter 5 needs to take us back to being blown away - not just some mundane release with less of the features we hoped to see.