Sound contacts on the surface? - Page 2

Rockin Robbins · 11-20-07, 08:08 AM

You're forgetting the fact that radar detection makes visual and sonar range moot. They just don't matter because you already know the exact position of the target.

@nattydread: just another free service of us troublemakers:p

@Luke: what do you say for a cutoff point for sonar, 12 knots?

swdw · 11-20-07, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

@swdw, we need to look into this more.

Sounds good to me. Be warned RR, luke's changes are designed to have crew rating affect the sonar and radar efficiency, so if you have a green crew . . . .

Also, there are times where visual spotting is poor due to weather (like fog). Radar works fine in this case, but what if your radar is damaged?

Laffertytig · 11-20-07, 09:14 AM

yeah + dont forget about the patrols pre 43 when radar isnt available.
so whats the word on this then? is it realistic to detect contacts on the surface with sonar ala RFB?

im swayin towards no in which case i might give the TM mod a run.

pythos · 11-20-07, 09:25 AM

Something else I have noticed. The S boat DOES NOT have this capability, which is accurate. The Fleet boats had two sets, one below the water, when surfaced and one above. This was one of the many advantages fleet boats had. Before people say this or that is not right, look it up on the net, or better yet, look at some books on the subject. Hydrophones worked up to a speed of 10-11 kts on the surface, and on smooth seas. Any faster or rougher you needed an uber sound man.

AVGWarhawk · 11-20-07, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerthighs

Yes, in the stock game you can detect cotnacts on sonar while surfaced, which isn't realistic.

The Trigger Maru mod modifies this to remove the surface detection. If you don't want to install that perhaps someone can post the specific change and you can make it yourself.

This is incorrect. Sonar does work on the surface. Under the sub's chin were sonar heads that can detect supersonic sounds while surfaced. Come on down to the USS Torsk and listen to the harbor traffic on the sonar if you get a chance to visit the boat in the Baltimore Harbor. Bear in mind though that the sonar is a bit too good in the game. You can read about Batfish listening while surfaced but the engines are at ahead slow. Best used if engines at idle or off. As far as TM removing this function, IMHO it should have stayed.

AVGWarhawk · 11-20-07, 09:55 AM

Quote:

RR:
So the real question is, are the capabilities of these heads grossly overmodeled in the game? The answer to that question would have to come directly from the sub logs themselves stating "QB contact" or "JK/QC contact" for under hull or "JP contact" for the sonar head on deck. Then a statistical study would have to be made to determine real wartime capabilities based on the evidence. I don't have access to that information.

I do not think the sonar is grossly overmodeled but we do have the absense of natural noises in the water. These noises that need to be filter out if possible. But, the books about and by the skippers did in fact state the sonar works while surfaced and I can tell you from personal experience with the USS Torsk, they do work while surfaced. I spend many a Saturday on the Torsk tracking the water taxis with the Torsk sonar

Laffertytig · 11-20-07, 09:56 AM

so in actual fact RFB has it pretty much spot on then? if we were to play 100% realistic we'd have to stop or slow down everynow and again for it to work which i just term as more micro management.

only one thing though, is sonar (radar should be as well) affected by sea state in SH4?

AVGWarhawk · 11-20-07, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

so in actual fact RFB has it pretty much spot on then? if we were to play 100% realistic we'd have to stop or slow down everynow and again for it to work which i just term as more micro management.

only one thing though, is sonar (radar should be as well) affected by sea state in SH4?

Yes, IMHO we should be forced to slow down to use the sonar while surfaced. Heck, at flank it works a bit to well. Sea state should and did affect sonar and radar alike. Radar would pick up rain squalls and island masses were the game does not. Sonar had to contend with density of the water and the noise of it's own engines. Despite all of this, most if not all skippers felt that the men up on the watch were your best defense and offense for spotting and tracking vessels.

I have not used RFB so I can not comment on that aspect.

LukeFF · 11-20-07, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythos

Hydrophones worked up to a speed of 10-11 kts on the surface, and on smooth seas. Any faster or rougher you needed an uber sound man.

Can you quote a primary source that says up to what speed boats could reliably detect sound contacts (i.e., propellor noises) on the surface? It would really help me out a lot.

Rockin Robbins · 11-20-07, 11:25 AM

If a cutoff speed could be set: like 12 knots, above which the sonar wouldn't work.

In RL it would still work and you would detect water going by the hull and engine noise from your own sub. :rotfl:Contact! Close range! Bearing 180! Range constant!

LukeFF · 11-20-07, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

@Luke: what do you say for a cutoff point for sonar, 12 knots?

Depends. I could really use help here in determining how efficient the keel-mounted sonar was at detecting plain-old ship noises while on the surface, i.e., up to what general speed.

Rockin Robbins · 11-20-07, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythos

Hydrophones worked up to a speed of 10-11 kts on the surface, and on smooth seas. Any faster or rougher you needed an uber sound man.

Can you quote a primary source that says up to what speed boats could reliably detect sound contacts (i.e., propellor noises) on the surface? It would really help me out a lot.

You're sounding like Beery!

LukeFF · 11-20-07, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

You're sounding like Beery!

It's the historian in me. :p

AVGWarhawk · 11-20-07, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

@Luke: what do you say for a cutoff point for sonar, 12 knots?

Depends. I could really use help here in determining how efficient the keel-mounted sonar was at detecting plain-old ship noises while on the surface, i.e., up to what general speed.

Whatever ahead slow would equate to in kts. This as per the USS Batfish and tactic used so the sonar could be used while surfaced. I guess somewhere between 3-5 kts. After that the sonar should have muddled sounds and water sounds going around the hull.

Laffertytig · 11-20-07, 12:37 PM

the only thing that makes me doubt this is the actual sub. the 2 hull mounted sensors are underwater, arent these used to send and detect active sonar, not detect propeller sounds?

the hydrophone listening device is ABOVE water level so how could it detect sound travellin through the water? thats my understanding on it anyways, has anyone got any hard facts to prove otherwise?

11-20-07, 08:08 AM	#16
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	But! You're forgetting the fact that radar detection makes visual and sonar range moot. They just don't matter because you already know the exact position of the target. @nattydread: just another free service of us troublemakers:p @Luke: what do you say for a cutoff point for sonar, 12 knots? __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-20-07, 11:25 AM	#25
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	I wonder If a cutoff speed could be set: like 12 knots, above which the sonar wouldn't work. In RL it would still work and you would detect water going by the hull and engine noise from your own sub. :rotfl:Contact! Close range! Bearing 180! Range constant! __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-20-07, 09:14 AM	#18
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	yeah + dont forget about the patrols pre 43 when radar isnt available. so whats the word on this then? is it realistic to detect contacts on the surface with sonar ala RFB? im swayin towards no in which case i might give the TM mod a run.

11-20-07, 09:25 AM	#19
pythos Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere over there Posts: 834 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	Something else I have noticed. The S boat DOES NOT have this capability, which is accurate. The Fleet boats had two sets, one below the water, when surfaced and one above. This was one of the many advantages fleet boats had. Before people say this or that is not right, look it up on the net, or better yet, look at some books on the subject. Hydrophones worked up to a speed of 10-11 kts on the surface, and on smooth seas. Any faster or rougher you needed an uber sound man.

11-20-07, 09:56 AM	#22
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	so in actual fact RFB has it pretty much spot on then? if we were to play 100% realistic we'd have to stop or slow down everynow and again for it to work which i just term as more micro management. only one thing though, is sonar (radar should be as well) affected by sea state in SH4?

11-20-07, 12:37 PM	#30
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	the only thing that makes me doubt this is the actual sub. the 2 hull mounted sensors are underwater, arent these used to send and detect active sonar, not detect propeller sounds? the hydrophone listening device is ABOVE water level so how could it detect sound travellin through the water? thats my understanding on it anyways, has anyone got any hard facts to prove otherwise?