The beginning of the end of free speech

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...514872,00.html

This situation is something that has concerned me increasingly over the past months, since this summer. I already have repeatdely disucssed it with a lawyer whom I met repatedly in summer due to some completey other issues.

I concluded that from beginning 2008 on, I will need to hide much of my opinions on the political developement and Islam from dicussion on the web, and telephone. Due to already valid anti-discirmination laws, much of my resistance to Islam, for example, would qualify as hate-speech and racism, and I could be sued for it. With the new surveillance and data storage, I was told, the likelihood is no longer unrealistic or minimal that I would find myself in court for participating in a discussion like some of those we had over here in the past. Also, much expression of political rejection of EU policies, like I often voiced, could get me into trouble.

What is it all about? You have one law (anti-discrimination), that effectively prevents you from voicing criticism of any religion in general, and islam in special, you are also hiddenly forbidden to resist helping and supporting the spreading of Islam and foreign colonization or immigration in general. I told you that I am in support of a civil rights movement over here that has (succeessfully) prevented the illegal increasing of an already existing basement mosque. This initiative already has repeatedly been targetted on the basis of these anti-discimination laws - and it was only some months since they became valid! So the risk is real. This same law also could be used to brandmark you as an extremist dangerous to national safety if you voice your rejection of, for example, the EU too enthusiastically, so this is an hint that you are getting prohibited from being against the official policy of the EU, or the government (implementing over 80% of the demands from Brussel without debate and most often in violation of the german constitution) . - At the same time now comes a new law, that puts all lawyers, journalists, doctors, priest, and private person under total and complete electronic surveillance, storing their data (IP, time, date) for at least half a year, and since the content you send over the web, for example, is there, and now could be linked in time and date to your computer'S IP, your identity could be revealed, always. this has always been the case, but it was not used by the state in a total and complete assault against all and everyone. - Eh, really? It has become known that when you click the official sites of government offices and ministries - you already end up in such surveillance routines for a not mentioned longer period of time. especially the ministry of justice if famous for doing so, and is even trying to install Trojans on your PC when you contact them. Take it with a sense of humour, I suggest! If you play with the snakes, don't be surprised if you get bitten. Active online searches of user'S web-connected PCs also are in the making, and though currently being hindred by oppositional voices, it will come sooner or later, I am sure.

Like in the US, all this latest legal stunt is coming under the ridiculous umbrella of "war on terror". As if any terrorist nowadays would be stupid enough to exchange sensible data with other bombslingers from his to their laptop in their private homes. They do not do that, of course, they use latest encryption technology, public places, internet cafes and such - all the things that will lead the investigators into empty spaces only. Police knows that, and says these new laws will help to fight standard small crime only, but will do nothing about terror prevention. The politicians must know it as well, I suppose.

So why? Obviously the side effects of these laws nevertheless sound tempting for some, so that they want these changes even if their use for fighting terror tends to be close to nill. It is about establishing the control of the state over the opinion building and saying of it's citizens, which more and more seem to be understood as a state property, and a EU property. It is about a mad sense of almost fashistoid collectivism, which shows it's face in the criminal energy to prevent europeans having a word over the EU constitution, the powerful ambitions of the EU to establish a tyranny of bureaucrats over the european people, a drive of political parties to control public media (in this context see the aimed-for changes in the German TV and radio system which will give parties more influence over the program and the power to publish their own stuff that has been refused by the public in a voluntary broadcasting project - people did not wish to listen to those silly debates in the bundestag, so now it must be enforced onto them), a yearning for making any resistance to official political opinion and projects such as the selling off of europe to Islam impossible and putting such resisting opinion under penalty, and establishing a total control of the state over every aspect of a person'S life from the cradle to the grave. A uniform collective replacing democratic, free society is the goal of thisa agenda, and if you look at the many political mistakes and flawed policies (that you and me sometimes discuss here in the forum and express our disgust with) from this perspective, then suddenly it all falls into an apparently fitting place, and what appears to be perversions before, suddenly becomes the message of a new, unfree normality.

Elections do not have a meaning anymore. EU takes over unilateral decision making powers from national parliaments, and national constitutions are being deconstructed more and more. Unwanted oppositional opinion on and rejecting to assist policies, cultural deconstruction of europe, refusing one's own historical identity, and islamisation of europe, gets prevented and is being put under penalty, or gets manipulated by implementing perception patterns in the young that make them control themselves in accordance with these goals. the best tyranny is from inside people's heads, when every criticism and different opinion is brandmarked by the masses themselves to be extremist, to be subversive, x-y-z-phobic, non-solidaric, and the hell knows what. The dependance of the single person from the state gets increased and enforced, often people get lured into voluntary submitting to the state's more and more total authority. we all must be the same. We all must be one. One collective. One template. One party.

The many symptoms of degeneration and politically wanted deconstruction of democratic basic principles make very much sense to me.

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.

By content, I have talked about this with that lawyer I mentioned in the beginning. He said, already right now in principle I could be sued for a posting like this, and for major parts of my opinion.

Okay, let it come, baby - sue me. If that would ever happen for real, I would no longer object the use of violence to resist this amok-running political madness in Europe, on the basis of mopst elemental self-defense. Oooops - for that statement I can be sued as well.

[Camaero]

Ah, the decay of civilization.

[DeepIron]

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.

"V for Vendetta" comes to mind...

When the day comes that my First Amendment right to Free Speech is taken from me, I shall exercise to it's fullest extent the Second Amendment, the right to own and bear arms.

I have been concerned from the day that Homeland Security was created to "keep America safe from terrorists" that my personal freedoms and rights would be eroded away in the name or guise of "The War of Terror". Wire taps, airport "security", blah, blah, blah... nothing more than keeping the sheep in line...

The only criminals I see are the ones running my government...

[Tchocky]

Hey guys, don't worry, we've set up a "Free Speech Zone" for y'all...

[Hitman]

We are no longer free. That's what it all is about, and the different choices of voting we are being given, are illusory only. Were we do not submit voluntarily, we more and more get forced by pressure to submit. Democracy was a nice chapter in history, but for the most, it is over. It became a victim of it's own inherent weaknesses.

We have NEVER been free. I'm amazed that someone as intelligent as you has taken so long to realize this :hmm:

[STEED]

Welcome to the real world Skybird, hold on to your pants you seen nothing yet.

End Times.

[Skybird]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

2+2=5
If they say it's five it's five and the masses will believe it, except some of us who have woken up and can see things that are coming.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

Such a 'black and white' statement is almost impossible to fathom coming from you Skybird.

Are you sure you don't have some American in you? :hmm:

[DeepIron]

Most often, you know the truth from early on. But you often need much additonal time until you admit to yourself that it is for real indeed.

I think this is because most people genuinely want to believe the best is possible in any given situation. I'm pretty convinced the world is collectively "going to hell in a handbasket", but I want to believe that individuals are still capable of truthful and noble ideas and actions...

[TteFAboB]

Ignore and carry on, like these guys: http://bartonbulletin.wordpress.com/...ing-draw-flap/

[P_Funk]

So the question is, should I even bother having kids, or would that be a very horrible thing to do to them?

You know its reading through things like this that I begin to understand people that bomb government buildings and join secret militias. I feel that outrage well up in me and I imagine all that happening in my country (cause it will eventually, even if Canada seems to resist the stronger measures a bit right now) and I begin to contemplate how others can feel so angry as to get violent. This is like that other thread about street gangs and where they come from. You feel powerless and marginalized and you can see feeling like theres no other direction to go in.

Viva la revolution...

[Skybird]

You guys knowing whom I see as some kind of an idol, for myself, not having a better word for it? You would be surprised: Hagen of Tronje.

Now, this is a tragic dark figure. in the Nibelungen saga, he is the close advisor, personal friend and army leader of the Franconian king, Gunther, like his whole family has served for generations to the royal family. when Siegfried showed up in the saga, he stole a lot of fame and reputation from the Franconian king (although not aiming for it, or being aware of it), and all shine of what Hagen believed in was in danger to dissappear. So he decided to kill Siegfried, and Gunther and his brothers agreed, so that the Franconian kingdom may regain triumph in the name of it's own greatness, not Siegfrieds naive and uncaring acts that illustrated that he was more lucky than being a ripe, responsible character. for me, siegfried was an powerful but stupoid idiot who could not value what he had been given, and took it for granted instead. Life was easy on him, and served him on a silver plate what others had to work bitterly hard for. Hagen also knew that for this service history would recall him as the evil villain.

Later, Siegfried's wife Kriemhild (king Gunther's sister) swore revenge. she married king Attila, and followed him to his far away kingdom. From there, she decided to take revenge on her Royal family, and to see them getting wiped out to the last man for allowing her husband getting murdered for the fame of the Franconian kingdom. She sent a message that she is forgiving them, and invited them to a family celebration.

Again, Hagen proved his unshaken loyalty to the (weak) king, warning him that it is a trap and if they would go to Attila'S castle, it would mean their ultimate fall, and death for all. when Gunther and his brothers decided to accept the invitation, Hagen wass left free to choose wether he goes with them, or not, and although he knew that Kriemhild was very much aware that he was the one assassinating her husband, he called all the army to arms, and choosed to follow his king, loyal in the face of clear knowledge that they all would find their death at Attila'S castle.

when they arrived, Attila and Gunther, both not wishing to wage war against each other, tried to remain in control, but events unfolded that resulted in Hagen rejecting to disarmr his army (leaving them unprotected to the lust to murder of Kriemhild), and killing Attilas son instead, which led to open war between the heavily armed Nibelungen army (the Franconians, named after the Nibelungen treasure that Siegfried had found and given to Gunther, after Hagen killed Siegfried he sank all the gold in the Rhine, cursing it for having brought all that pity and fading of glory over the Franconians), and the lightly armed, but numercially superior army of the Huns. The battle unfolding was terrible, and the Franconians waded in blood like butchers, killing twenty huns for each of their own men falling. the castle goes up in flames, and several attempts to negotiate surrender got refused by the Franconians. In the end, only Gunther and Hagen were left, with the castle in ruins, and the Huns having suffered terrible losses - too much as if they could call it a victory. Hagen, now in chains, finally was confronted by Kriemhild showing him the head of her brother, king Gunther, who was executed on her command. when Hagen refused in disgust to tell her where he hid the treasure of siegfried, she killed him as well. A former friend of Hagen, living at attila'S castle since years, saw this courageous, loyal man and his king, Gunther, being murdered by this icy cold fanatical beast of a woman, and was so outraged that he drew his sword and slaughtered her as well. This was the end of the Nibelungen.

As you see, i have a very different view of Hagen than what most sources and versions of the saga describe him as. Usually he is described as the evil villain, the saga's pendant to Darth Vader. but whatever he did - he did it with determination, but also with a greater goal on mind: not to allow the one quality he believed in to be betrayed: the shine and glory of the franconian kingdom, which in the saga functions as a place of light, justice, and peace. He accepts to ruin his and his family's reputation, and takes the burden to become a murderer, in defense of this what he had identified to be the centre of light, so to speak. He also had an almost Prussian sense of serving, and loyalty. and he did not give up on these even in the face of doom, trying to defend his king against all odds, and although his king made a terrible mistake when accepting that lethal invitation.

That's why I have sympathy for Hagen. I do not see him as a completely dark figure. He is a tragic hero with whom history (the history of the saga) dealt with in a most unjust way to express some qualities of values that else would have remained in the hidden.

Please do not compare all this to what the Nazis made of it when talking of "Nibelungen-Treue". they gave the story, and so many others as well, a very serious twist, to abuse it for their own evil purpsoes. You all know it, and I know it too. No need to discuss this.

The Nibelungen-Lied is embedded in a circle of several other sagas as well, and together with the saga around king arthur, and some ancient Greek sagas, it is the greatest stuff of this kind that I know.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You guys knowing whom I see as some kind of an idol, for myself, not having a better word for it? You would be surprised: Hagen of Tronje.

Now, this is a tragic dark figure. in the Nibelungen saga, he is the close advisor, personal friend and army leader of the Franconian king, Gunther, like his whole family has served for generations to the royal family. when Siegfried showed up in the saga, he stole a lot of fame and reputation from the Franconian king (although not aiming for it, or being aware of it), and all shine of what Hagen believed in was in danger to dissappear. So he decided to kill Siegfried, and Gunther and his brothers agreed, so that the Franconian kingdom may regain triumph in the name of it's own greatness, not Siegfrieds naive and uncaring acts that illustrated that he was more lucky than being a ripe, responsible character. for me, siegfried was an powerful but stupoid idiot who could not value what he had been given, and took it for granted instead. Life was easy on him, and served him on a silver plate what others had to work bitterly hard for. Hagen also knew that for this service history would recall him as the evil villain.

Later, Siegfried's wife Kriemhild (king Gunther's sister) swore revenge. she married king Attila, and followed him to his far away kingdom. From there, she decided to take revenge on her Royal family, and to see them getting wiped out to the last man for allowing her husband getting murdered for the fame of the Franconian kingdom. She sent a message that she is forgiving them, and invited them to a family celebration.

Again, Hagen proved his unshaken loyalty to the (weak) king, warning him that it is a trap and if they would go to Attila'S castle, it would mean their ultimate fall, and death for all. when Gunther and his brothers decided to accept the invitation, Hagen wass left free to choose wether he goes with them, or not, and although he knew that Kriemhild was very much aware that he was the one assassinating her husband, he called all the army to arms, and choosed to follow his king, loyal in the face of clear knowledge that they all would find their death at Attila'S castle.

when they arrived, Attila and Gunther, both not wishing to wage war against each other, tried to remain in control, but events unfolded that resulted in Hagen rejecting to disarmr his army (leaving them unprotected to the lust to murder of Kriemhild), and killing Attilas son instead, which led to open war between the heavily armed Nibelungen army (the Franconians, named after the Nibelungen treasure that Siegfried had found and given to Gunther, after Hagen killed Siegfried he sank all the gold in the Rhine, cursing it for having brought all that pity and fading of glory over the Franconians), and the lightly armed, but numercially superior army of the Huns. The battle unfolding was terrible, and the Franconians waded in blood like butchers, killing twenty huns for each of their own men falling. the castle goes up in flames, and several attempts to negotiate surrender got refused by the Franconians. In the end, only Gunther and Hagen were left, with the castle in ruins, and the Huns having suffered terrible losses - too much as if they could call it a victory. Hagen, now in chains, finally was confronted by Kriemhild showing him the head of her brother, king Gunther, who was executed on her command. when Hagen refused in disgust to tell her where he hid the treasure of siegfried, she killed him as well. A former friend of Hagen, living at attila'S castle since years, saw this courageous, loyal man and his king, Gunther, being murdered by this icy cold fanatical beast of a woman, and was so outraged that he drew his sword and slaughtered her as well. This was the end of the Nibelungen.

As you see, i have a very different view of Hagen than what most sources and versions of the saga describe him as. Usually he is described as the evil villain, the saga's pendant to Darth Vader. but whatever he did - he did it with determination, but also with a greater goal on mind: not to allow the one quality he believed in to be betrayed: the shine and glory of the franconian kingdom, which in the saga functions as a place of light, justice, and peace. He accepts to ruin his and his family's reputation, and takes the burden to become a murderer, in defense of this what he had identified to be the centre of light, so to speak. He also had an almost Prussian sense of serving, and loyalty. and he did not give up on these even in the face of doom, trying to defend his king against all odds, and although his king made a terrible mistake when accepting that lethal invitation.

That's why I have sympathy for Hagen. I do not see him as a completely dark figure. He is a tragic hero with whom history (the history of the saga) dealt with in a most unjust way to express some qualities of values that else would have remained in the hidden.

Please do not compare all this to what the Nazis made of it when talking of "Nibelungen-Treue". they gave the story, and so many others as well, a very serious twist, to abuse it for their own evil purpsoes. You all know it, and I know it too. No need to discuss this.

The Nibelungen-Lied is embedded in a circle of several other sagas as well, and together with the saga around king arthur, and some ancient Greek sagas, it is the greatest stuff of this kind that I know.

Stop trying to push your Aryan idolitry on the rest of us. One thread has already been closed today already.

[Skybird]

Judging by the sound and smell of it, a wastegate has just opened and closed somewhere again.