Would this be possible?

VonHammer · 10-26-07, 09:16 PM

Ok, i have been reading W.E.B. Griffins The Corps seires and had just finished the eighth bookin the series - In Dangers Path. anyway the main point in the book is to setup a weather station in the Gobi Desert using Catilianas. However, in order for the Cats to make it into the Gobi, they have refuel by sub in the Yellow Sea. The sub mentioned was a Porpoise class.

What i wanted to know was if anything like this actually happened during WWII, or for that matter possiable?

Torplexed · 10-26-07, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHammer

Ok, i have been reading W.E.B. Griffins The Corps seires and had just finished the eighth bookin the series - In Dangers Path. anyway the main point in the book is to setup a weather station in the Gobi Desert using Catilianas. However, in order for the Cats to make it into the Gobi, they have refuel by sub in the Yellow Sea. The sub mentioned was a Porpoise class.

What i wanted to know was if anything like this actually happened during WWII, or for that matter possiable?

I've never heard of it. US B-29 bombers operated briefly out of western China. But it was a logisitical nightmare which relied on transport planes flying over the Himalayas. Japanese patrol planes operating out of the Marshall Islands did on occasion during the war, peek in on Pearl Harbor by refueling from I-Boats located at French Frigate shoal, but that ended when the US Navy began parking ships there.

VonHammer · 10-26-07, 10:03 PM

i wanted some clarification. and also i was wondering was there a group of retired Amercian soliders, sailors and marines that refused to enter into Jap captivity and wandered the Gobi? just wanted some info on that.

Torplexed · 10-26-07, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHammer

i wanted some clarification. and also i was wondering was there a group of retired Amercian soliders, sailors and marines that refused to enter into Jap captivity and wandered the Gobi? just wanted some info on that.

Hmmm. Not exactly an American theater or war. The Gobi is divided between China and Mongolia if I remember correctly. Unless some Americans escaped Japanese captivity in Manchuria, I'm not sure how they would have come to be there. The downed pilots in the Dolittle Raid escaped from China by heading east until they were behind Nationalist lines and were then flown out of the country.(from Chungking I think) Not exactly sure what retired American miltary personnel would be doing in the Gobi desert area either.

Can't say I ever read about US subs refueling PBY Catalinas, but I doubt it would be impossible.

hyperion2206 · 10-27-07, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHammer

Ok, i have been reading W.E.B. Griffins The Corps seires and had just finished the eighth bookin the series - In Dangers Path. anyway the main point in the book is to setup a weather station in the Gobi Desert using Catilianas. However, in order for the Cats to make it into the Gobi, they have refuel by sub in the Yellow Sea. The sub mentioned was a Porpoise class.

What i wanted to know was if anything like this actually happened during WWII, or for that matter possiable?

I doubt that a sub could refuel a plane. If I'm not mistake both use different fuel types and I don't really know were you would store kerosine on a sub.:hmm:

Sniper297 · 10-27-07, 08:14 AM

Subs burn kerosene, Catalinas didn't. As for how, simplest would be to store a few barrels of avgas under the deck, or even lash them on deck. With no air in the barrels compression wouldn't be a problem, having them on deck would shorten the prep time for refueling. A single PBY wouldn't need a lot of fuel, a fleet sub could actually carry enough to refuel a whole squadron. Don't recall if the US ever did it, but at Midway a Japanese recon flying boat was supposed to land at French Frigate Shoals and refuel from a JN sub. Couple US tin cans loitering with intent around French Frigate Shoals discouraged the sub, operation was called off, recon was cancelled, Japs lost track of US carriers, for the want of a nail etcetera. :hmm:

SteamWake · 10-27-07, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperion2206

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHammer

Ok, i have been reading W.E.B. Griffins The Corps seires and had just finished the eighth bookin the series - In Dangers Path. anyway the main point in the book is to setup a weather station in the Gobi Desert using Catilianas. However, in order for the Cats to make it into the Gobi, they have refuel by sub in the Yellow Sea. The sub mentioned was a Porpoise class.

What i wanted to know was if anything like this actually happened during WWII, or for that matter possiable?

I doubt that a sub could refuel a plane. If I'm not mistake both use different fuel types and I don't really know were you would store kerosine on a sub.:hmm:

The 'fuel' could have been stored in barrels and pumped to the planes.

Kind of strange though Cats espically later models had a range of around 3,000 miles. You would think it would be the other way around. The cats fueling the subs.

Sniper297 · 10-27-07, 08:37 AM

Think you got that inside out. To get max range on a PBY you'd need full fuel, and what was the payload of a PBY with full fuel? Subs use tons of diesel, how many tons could a PBY lift? Airlifting fuel even in the jet age isn't really practical, but in an emergency wierd situation I suppose you could carry a limited amount of fuel to a sub by flying boat. Back to the original scenario, refueling a single PBY from a sub, lashing barrels on deck probably wouldn't be necessary either - empty an aux tank, fill it with avgas, pass a hose across to the PBY and pump away.

Funny thing, I was in a heavy ASW helicopter squadron in the US Navy, Sikorsky SH-3Ds with twin turboshafts, burned JP-4 jet fuel. Jet fuel is essentially better refined diesel fuel, both are kerosene (what the Brits call "parrafin"), so when it came time to refuel the diesel powered NC-8 power cart we just used the fuel samples from the helicopters. The diesel in that NC-8 was perfectly happy burning JP-4 instead of diesel fuel, nary a hiccup.

BTW, our helicopters were too big to land on destroyers and frigates, but we did refuel from them by hovering alongside and pulling up a fuel hose with the rescue hoist - there was a fuel filler cap just inside the cargo door on the SH-3D.

VonHammer · 10-27-07, 10:13 AM

ok. if i remeber correctly, what ended up hapining was that some aux tanks were installed on the cats, there were two them. then i belive that they floated 55-gallon drums over to the Cats using rubber boats.

on a side note, i think this would make an intresting mission in SH4.

Sniper297 · 10-27-07, 12:40 PM

Yeah, "tokyo tanks" were fairly common in the Pacific due to the long distances, big problem there is you can't carry much of a war load when you're carrying fuel.

I googled this sucker, couldn't find anything about the US navy doing it in WWII, altho they fiddled with the idea in the '50s:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08362.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Guavina_(SS-362)

One pic in there of refueling a P5M at sea, scroll to the bottom.

Don't have any first hand experience with this, but thinking about the floating of oil drums across - seems to me you wouldn't need rubber boats, fuel is 6 pounds per gallon, water is 8 pounds per gallon, would a 55 gallon drum of fuel float by itself?

10-26-07, 09:16 PM	#1
VonHammer Engineer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 218 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Would this be possible? Ok, i have been reading W.E.B. Griffins The Corps seires and had just finished the eighth bookin the series - In Dangers Path. anyway the main point in the book is to setup a weather station in the Gobi Desert using Catilianas. However, in order for the Cats to make it into the Gobi, they have refuel by sub in the Yellow Sea. The sub mentioned was a Porpoise class. What i wanted to know was if anything like this actually happened during WWII, or for that matter possiable?

10-26-07, 10:03 PM	#3
VonHammer Engineer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 218 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	i wanted some clarification. and also i was wondering was there a group of retired Amercian soliders, sailors and marines that refused to enter into Jap captivity and wandered the Gobi? just wanted some info on that.

10-27-07, 08:14 AM	#6
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Subs burn kerosene, Catalinas didn't. As for how, simplest would be to store a few barrels of avgas under the deck, or even lash them on deck. With no air in the barrels compression wouldn't be a problem, having them on deck would shorten the prep time for refueling. A single PBY wouldn't need a lot of fuel, a fleet sub could actually carry enough to refuel a whole squadron. Don't recall if the US ever did it, but at Midway a Japanese recon flying boat was supposed to land at French Frigate Shoals and refuel from a JN sub. Couple US tin cans loitering with intent around French Frigate Shoals discouraged the sub, operation was called off, recon was cancelled, Japs lost track of US carriers, for the want of a nail etcetera. :hmm:

10-27-07, 08:37 AM	#8
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Think you got that inside out. To get max range on a PBY you'd need full fuel, and what was the payload of a PBY with full fuel? Subs use tons of diesel, how many tons could a PBY lift? Airlifting fuel even in the jet age isn't really practical, but in an emergency wierd situation I suppose you could carry a limited amount of fuel to a sub by flying boat. Back to the original scenario, refueling a single PBY from a sub, lashing barrels on deck probably wouldn't be necessary either - empty an aux tank, fill it with avgas, pass a hose across to the PBY and pump away. Funny thing, I was in a heavy ASW helicopter squadron in the US Navy, Sikorsky SH-3Ds with twin turboshafts, burned JP-4 jet fuel. Jet fuel is essentially better refined diesel fuel, both are kerosene (what the Brits call "parrafin"), so when it came time to refuel the diesel powered NC-8 power cart we just used the fuel samples from the helicopters. The diesel in that NC-8 was perfectly happy burning JP-4 instead of diesel fuel, nary a hiccup. BTW, our helicopters were too big to land on destroyers and frigates, but we did refuel from them by hovering alongside and pulling up a fuel hose with the rescue hoist - there was a fuel filler cap just inside the cargo door on the SH-3D.

10-27-07, 10:13 AM	#9
VonHammer Engineer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 218 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	ok. if i remeber correctly, what ended up hapining was that some aux tanks were installed on the cats, there were two them. then i belive that they floated 55-gallon drums over to the Cats using rubber boats. on a side note, i think this would make an intresting mission in SH4.

10-27-07, 12:40 PM	#10
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Yeah, "tokyo tanks" were fairly common in the Pacific due to the long distances, big problem there is you can't carry much of a war load when you're carrying fuel. I googled this sucker, couldn't find anything about the US navy doing it in WWII, altho they fiddled with the idea in the '50s: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08362.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Guavina_(SS-362) One pic in there of refueling a P5M at sea, scroll to the bottom. Don't have any first hand experience with this, but thinking about the floating of oil drums across - seems to me you wouldn't need rubber boats, fuel is 6 pounds per gallon, water is 8 pounds per gallon, would a 55 gallon drum of fuel float by itself?