[REQ] Submarine damage model overhaul

Quagmire · 09-30-07, 10:22 AM

The title says it all. The whole submarine damage model is a joke and needs a BIG TIME mod. I started a tounge-in-cheek complaint thread on the main forum http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122789

Anyway unfixable leaks are one thing. But unfixable leaks in compartments which are above the waterline when surfaced is another.

Thats just plain stupid. How is it that my crew cant figure out a way to stop that valve from spraying after five days???

So is anyone working on a sub damage model refit? I am very clueless when it comes to modding but I am a fast learner. I am willing to help one of the modding greats here who decides to take this on.

We need to fix this because my sonarmans fingers are wrinkling after a five day shower! :rotfl:
.

tater · 09-30-07, 10:57 AM

The spraying water is not a damage model problem.

The code is set up to warn you of hull damage via visual cues instead of some idiotic hull integrity meter that would tell you the hull is at 87.145632356897658% strength.

If you see that, GO HOME. It's the game's way of saying GO HOME. The fact it's above the waterline has nothing to do with the way the sub is damaged. The HULL is weak in invisible ways (weakened metal, microscopic crack in the ull or welds... stuff just waiting to fail. Dive too deeply and you will crush.

I actually think that a good look at the sub DMs would be useful, but I don't think that the "problem" that made you come to the conclusion is one of the things that needs fixing

tater

Shadowhunter · 09-30-07, 12:19 PM

I think this isn't a "problem" as a bug i.e. is.

It's more an annoyance especially if you look at SH4 as a simulation. I wondered how much "realism" mods there are floating around here (i.e. more realistic bubbles) and I rate Quagmires issue in the same category.

It's just not logical that water is sprinkling in the conning tower when surfaced.

In this light I think the issue has the same relevance as others with the same "severance".

Regards
Shadowhunter

tater · 09-30-07, 12:30 PM

Did he really control-F2 and go up to the conning tower, or was he below?

Shadowhunter · 09-30-07, 12:53 PM

He complains about his sonar operator, so he has to be in the conning tower, or am I mistaken?

Quagmire · 09-30-07, 02:02 PM

I guess pictures are worth a thousand words to get your point across so here it goes:

Here is a shot of my conning tower interior (which is above the waterline, DUH!)

This has been spraying for the last five days. Note the depth meter, I AM SURFACED.

This is a shot of the damage analysis I ran on the latest save.

Note that I am barely damaged. Also I took the damage reported from sitting on the bottom. Conning tower or anything above the keel was untouched.

Now, dont you think that it is stupid that a valve on the ceiling of the conning tower room spray like that when it is ABOVE THE WATERLINE???

Your honor, I rest my case. Modders please help...
.

tater · 09-30-07, 02:39 PM

No, as I said, the leak has nothing to do with where the damage is. The conning tower is not leaking, if it was, you'd see flooding on the DC screen.

The leak is just a visual cue that the hull is damaged.

Clear to dive 50% of rated depth is not terribly minor damage. It means that instead of 350ft (whatever it is) that your crush depth is now 175ft.

That's not minor in my book.

Again, the leaks are just the game saying the overall hull hitpoint level is below some threshhold.

BTW, what is that pipe in RL? Maybe it goes to the water fountain, or a steam line who says it has to be underwater to have water inside it? My hose bib 20ft away out my back door here leaks, and my house is 6500ft above sea level, I need a mod!

tater

tater · 09-30-07, 02:46 PM

BTW, I'm not attacking the idea of revisiting the sub DMs, I think it needs a serious look. I am only saying that this particular "problem" is actually a feature.

Without the 3d party damage analyzer program, the game is telling you to GO HOME, your sub will no longer work like the manual from Electric Boat says it should.

tater

hawk2495 · 09-30-07, 02:50 PM

It is annoying yes, but think back then that was the only way they could immediately tell there was damage. when pipes and valves started leaking it told the crew something was up. who knows that valve may be leaking water because the plating it is attached to is buckled some what and it snapped the line. that would tell you that that section of the hull has been damaged. so maybe its a good idea to RTB.

tater · 09-30-07, 02:52 PM

The real damage issue in his story is that the boat took like 50% damage from a gentle park on the bottom.

tater

hawk2495 · 09-30-07, 02:54 PM

ok well i missed that part.... lol but yeah even a gentle park on the bottom would tend to buckle a few plates.

Sailor Steve · 09-30-07, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

BTW, what is that pipe in RL? Maybe it goes to the water fountain, or a steam line who says it has to be underwater to have water inside it? My hose bib 20ft away out my back door here leaks, and my house is 6500ft above sea level, I need a mod!

tater

I looked closely at all the diagrams in the Fleet-type Submarine manual, and there are no ballast, trim or drain lines in the conning tower. It might be the line to the depth-guages, as I think they need water pressure to work, but then they probably would contain none while surfaced.

I'm starting to think it's the 'movie' line, specifically designed to spray water when damaged, thereby giving the crew something cool-looking to do in an emergency.

swdw · 09-30-07, 04:27 PM

Note- I stand corrected, you are in the conning tower- took a look at the info I had and realized I mis interperted it.

Aside from the fact that Tater points out this is a game tool to let you know you have hull damage, let me answer some other things.

First, the leak is simulated from a pressurized water line and this signifies, as tater said, a problem with the hull (and can even on a real boat) . . . possibly I have a little experience in this area (look at my sig). A pressurized line will leak if you're submerged, surfaced, or flying. In real life, when a valve leaks from a body, or stem, it requires replacing the valve which in some cases is NOT POSSIBLE AT SEA because it is the last isolation point before the hull penetration. This is simulated nicely by the placement of the valve.

Now to add more detail, subs have 2 hulls ,an outer hull which does not have to stand up to pressure and the inner pressure hull. With this configuration the outer hull will make it look like a compartment is above the water line when, in actuallity, it may be totally/partially submerged. The outer hull is a skin to protect the ballast tanks and other equipment mounted outside the pressure hull.

Go here and you'll see a simple diagram of this
http://saragossa.net/cubby/howasubworks.html

Now, more info on setting a boat on the bottom. Just because you have an INDICATED speed of 0 knots doens't mean your aren't moving at some speed relative to the sea floor. If you are drifting in a current, your indicated speed will be 0 even though the boat may be moving at anywhere up to several knots in relation to the sea floor. This is one of the risks in putting a boat on the bottom. Unless you have a fathometer ( a modern one that gives you a profile, not just a depth reading) that allows you to monitor the bottom and ensure you are hovering, you can hit the floor at sufficient speed to do damage. I wasn't kidding in the other post when I said this is considered a VERY RISKY tactic.

Next, dealing with hull stress. If you are underwater your ballast tanks are filled with water making the boat negatively bouyant, placing the entire weight of the hull on the bottom. The pressure hull is designed to withstand equidistant pressure on the entire surface. Excessive stress on only one area causing unequal pressure that is too excessive can cause damage or failure- this is the principal behind a depth charge. Since the ocean floor is not flat, you have no idea where pressure may be placed on the hull or the keel.. You can high center the boat causing the weight from the bow and stern to make the hull droop at each end. Now you have incredible stresses placed on a hull. You can settle in an area where 2/3 of the hull issupported causing uneven stress as the unsupported section tries to droop. The longer you sit there, the more cumulative stress you add to the hull. Any protruding rocks will make matters worse.

So you know, when pulled into dry dock a boat is settled onto the blocks which are placed at specific points on the hull that are designed to distribute the stress. It's settled on the blocks through a combination of ballast tanks AND lowering the level in the drydock

Just because you think you did a perfect bottoming doesn't mean you did. So take a couple of deep breaths, get your boat to port and do a little more research on real submarines, damage control and advisable tactics. Your gameplay experience will benefit from it.

captiandon · 09-30-07, 06:29 PM

That is the conning tower thought. WW2 subs had what looked like a large pop can put inside the tower which was above the control room. This was where the sensors and parascopes were then. However I believe your right about the pipes as I wouldnt question a bubblehead on how subs are. Pipes do burst under pressure as Just simple cold can do that. When I see that and it dosnt stop I dont dive to deep. However I have had leaks like that stop after the crew fixed the boat. when that happined I tryed the boat at test debth and it was fixed. However if the leaks dont stop when the boats fixed it means that a refit at port is badly needed and i dont exceed PD. Rarely Have I had problems that bad as I have been really good at loosing any destroyers trying to sink me. I do agree that dammage is unrealistic and a major over haul is needed as I can ram the heck out of ships and suffer no ill effect. I do like the leaks myself as its an indacation of just how bad my boat really is. I have a bad habbit of taking on destroyers and smaller craft with the deck gun. Good thing is that the AI gunners seem to be crosseyed and can hit a thing and I am an expert gunner.

swdw · 09-30-07, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captiandon

However if the leaks dont stop when the boats fixed it means that a refit at port is badly needed and i dont exceed PD.

Makes sense as this would signify repairs that can't be made at sea. Not everything is fixable by the crew on patrol.

Quote:

I do agree that dammage is unrealistic and a major over haul is needed as I can ram the heck out of ships and suffer no ill effect. I do like the leaks myself as its an indacation of just how bad my boat really is.

This sounds like the core code does not recognize this as a collision. Although this needs to be fixed, maybe it needs to be fixed in a patch? Would be interested to know if this is moddable or requires a bug fix.

09-30-07, 10:22 AM	#1
Quagmire Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 335 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	[REQ] Submarine damage model overhaul The title says it all. The whole submarine damage model is a joke and needs a BIG TIME mod. I started a tounge-in-cheek complaint thread on the main forum http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122789 Anyway unfixable leaks are one thing. But unfixable leaks in compartments which are above the waterline when surfaced is another. Thats just plain stupid. How is it that my crew cant figure out a way to stop that valve from spraying after five days??? So is anyone working on a sub damage model refit? I am very clueless when it comes to modding but I am a fast learner. I am willing to help one of the modding greats here who decides to take this on. We need to fix this because my sonarmans fingers are wrinkling after a five day shower! :rotfl: . __________________ The day publishers figured out that they could sell flashy first person shooters to teenagers in numbers greater than sand on a beach was the day that quality simulations died. --Col. Tibbets UBI SHIV Forums I guess they should have made SH4 an open boat where we run around inside and shoot each other a 1000 times. They seem to handle those games with numerous patches. --Longam UBI SHIV Forums A sad day has dawned...

09-30-07, 12:19 PM	#3
Shadowhunter Watch Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere (Germany) Posts: 23 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I think this isn't a "problem" as a bug i.e. is. It's more an annoyance especially if you look at SH4 as a simulation. I wondered how much "realism" mods there are floating around here (i.e. more realistic bubbles) and I rate Quagmires issue in the same category. It's just not logical that water is sprinkling in the conning tower when surfaced. In this light I think the issue has the same relevance as others with the same "severance". Regards Shadowhunter __________________ Dive safe mates

09-30-07, 12:53 PM	#5
Shadowhunter Watch Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere (Germany) Posts: 23 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	He complains about his sonar operator, so he has to be in the conning tower, or am I mistaken? __________________ Dive safe mates

09-30-07, 02:02 PM	#6
Quagmire Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 335 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	I guess pictures are worth a thousand words to get your point across so here it goes: Here is a shot of my conning tower interior (which is above the waterline, DUH!) This has been spraying for the last five days. Note the depth meter, I AM SURFACED. This is a shot of the damage analysis I ran on the latest save. Note that I am barely damaged. Also I took the damage reported from sitting on the bottom. Conning tower or anything above the keel was untouched. Now, dont you think that it is stupid that a valve on the ceiling of the conning tower room spray like that when it is ABOVE THE WATERLINE??? Your honor, I rest my case. Modders please help... . __________________ The day publishers figured out that they could sell flashy first person shooters to teenagers in numbers greater than sand on a beach was the day that quality simulations died. --Col. Tibbets UBI SHIV Forums I guess they should have made SH4 an open boat where we run around inside and shoot each other a 1000 times. They seem to handle those games with numerous patches. --Longam UBI SHIV Forums A sad day has dawned...

09-30-07, 04:27 PM	#13
swdw Grey Wolf Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 921 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	Note- I stand corrected, you are in the conning tower- took a look at the info I had and realized I mis interperted it. Aside from the fact that Tater points out this is a game tool to let you know you have hull damage, let me answer some other things. First, the leak is simulated from a pressurized water line and this signifies, as tater said, a problem with the hull (and can even on a real boat) . . . possibly I have a little experience in this area (look at my sig). A pressurized line will leak if you're submerged, surfaced, or flying. In real life, when a valve leaks from a body, or stem, it requires replacing the valve which in some cases is NOT POSSIBLE AT SEA because it is the last isolation point before the hull penetration. This is simulated nicely by the placement of the valve. Now to add more detail, subs have 2 hulls ,an outer hull which does not have to stand up to pressure and the inner pressure hull. With this configuration the outer hull will make it look like a compartment is above the water line when, in actuallity, it may be totally/partially submerged. The outer hull is a skin to protect the ballast tanks and other equipment mounted outside the pressure hull. Go here and you'll see a simple diagram of this http://saragossa.net/cubby/howasubworks.html Now, more info on setting a boat on the bottom. Just because you have an INDICATED speed of 0 knots doens't mean your aren't moving at some speed relative to the sea floor. If you are drifting in a current, your indicated speed will be 0 even though the boat may be moving at anywhere up to several knots in relation to the sea floor. This is one of the risks in putting a boat on the bottom. Unless you have a fathometer ( a modern one that gives you a profile, not just a depth reading) that allows you to monitor the bottom and ensure you are hovering, you can hit the floor at sufficient speed to do damage. I wasn't kidding in the other post when I said this is considered a VERY RISKY tactic. Next, dealing with hull stress. If you are underwater your ballast tanks are filled with water making the boat negatively bouyant, placing the entire weight of the hull on the bottom. The pressure hull is designed to withstand equidistant pressure on the entire surface. Excessive stress on only one area causing unequal pressure that is too excessive can cause damage or failure- this is the principal behind a depth charge. Since the ocean floor is not flat, you have no idea where pressure may be placed on the hull or the keel.. You can high center the boat causing the weight from the bow and stern to make the hull droop at each end. Now you have incredible stresses placed on a hull. You can settle in an area where 2/3 of the hull issupported causing uneven stress as the unsupported section tries to droop. The longer you sit there, the more cumulative stress you add to the hull. Any protruding rocks will make matters worse. So you know, when pulled into dry dock a boat is settled onto the blocks which are placed at specific points on the hull that are designed to distribute the stress. It's settled on the blocks through a combination of ballast tanks AND lowering the level in the drydock Just because you think you did a perfect bottoming doesn't mean you did. So take a couple of deep breaths, get your boat to port and do a little more research on real submarines, damage control and advisable tactics. Your gameplay experience will benefit from it. __________________ "There are only two types of ships- submarines...... and targets" Unknown "you wouldn't catch me on a ship that deliberately sinks itself"- comment to me from a surface sailor. System: AMD 6300 3.5 GHz \| 32GB DDR3 \| SATA 300 320GB HD, SATA III 1TB HD, SATA III 1.TB HD \| ASUS Sonar DS sound card NVIDIA 1660 Super OC \| Windows 10 Last edited by swdw; 09-30-07 at 11:12 PM.

09-30-07, 10:57 AM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The spraying water is not a damage model problem. The code is set up to warn you of hull damage via visual cues instead of some idiotic hull integrity meter that would tell you the hull is at 87.145632356897658% strength. If you see that, GO HOME. It's the game's way of saying GO HOME. The fact it's above the waterline has nothing to do with the way the sub is damaged. The HULL is weak in invisible ways (weakened metal, microscopic crack in the ull or welds... stuff just waiting to fail. Dive too deeply and you will crush. I actually think that a good look at the sub DMs would be useful, but I don't think that the "problem" that made you come to the conclusion is one of the things that needs fixing tater

09-30-07, 12:30 PM	#4
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Did he really control-F2 and go up to the conning tower, or was he below?

09-30-07, 02:39 PM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	No, as I said, the leak has nothing to do with where the damage is. The conning tower is not leaking, if it was, you'd see flooding on the DC screen. The leak is just a visual cue that the hull is damaged. Clear to dive 50% of rated depth is not terribly minor damage. It means that instead of 350ft (whatever it is) that your crush depth is now 175ft. That's not minor in my book. Again, the leaks are just the game saying the overall hull hitpoint level is below some threshhold. BTW, what is that pipe in RL? Maybe it goes to the water fountain, or a steam line who says it has to be underwater to have water inside it? My hose bib 20ft away out my back door here leaks, and my house is 6500ft above sea level, I need a mod! tater

09-30-07, 02:46 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	BTW, I'm not attacking the idea of revisiting the sub DMs, I think it needs a serious look. I am only saying that this particular "problem" is actually a feature. Without the 3d party damage analyzer program, the game is telling you to GO HOME, your sub will no longer work like the manual from Electric Boat says it should. tater

09-30-07, 02:50 PM	#9
hawk2495 Sparky Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SierraVista, AZ Posts: 155 Downloads: 196 Uploads: 0	It is annoying yes, but think back then that was the only way they could immediately tell there was damage. when pipes and valves started leaking it told the crew something was up. who knows that valve may be leaking water because the plating it is attached to is buckled some what and it snapped the line. that would tell you that that section of the hull has been damaged. so maybe its a good idea to RTB.

09-30-07, 02:52 PM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The real damage issue in his story is that the boat took like 50% damage from a gentle park on the bottom. tater

09-30-07, 02:54 PM	#11
hawk2495 Sparky Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SierraVista, AZ Posts: 155 Downloads: 196 Uploads: 0	ok well i missed that part.... lol but yeah even a gentle park on the bottom would tend to buckle a few plates.

09-30-07, 06:29 PM	#14
captiandon Soundman Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 148 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That is the conning tower thought. WW2 subs had what looked like a large pop can put inside the tower which was above the control room. This was where the sensors and parascopes were then. However I believe your right about the pipes as I wouldnt question a bubblehead on how subs are. Pipes do burst under pressure as Just simple cold can do that. When I see that and it dosnt stop I dont dive to deep. However I have had leaks like that stop after the crew fixed the boat. when that happined I tryed the boat at test debth and it was fixed. However if the leaks dont stop when the boats fixed it means that a refit at port is badly needed and i dont exceed PD. Rarely Have I had problems that bad as I have been really good at loosing any destroyers trying to sink me. I do agree that dammage is unrealistic and a major over haul is needed as I can ram the heck out of ships and suffer no ill effect. I do like the leaks myself as its an indacation of just how bad my boat really is. I have a bad habbit of taking on destroyers and smaller craft with the deck gun. Good thing is that the AI gunners seem to be crosseyed and can hit a thing and I am an expert gunner.