The human element...

madjack · 08-07-07, 02:46 AM

I bought SH4 a few weeks ago. And it's often exciting and also deeply involving and yet...where's the human element, where's the human drama?

Let me explain.

My thinking is that as a commander of a sub, you would have been responsible for 30-40 men, cooped up in a metal tube in the middle of the vast ocean, in peril. To a man, they would have been looking to you to make the right decisions to 'take the fight to the enemy' but also, crucially, to bring them back to their wives, their children, their loved ones. As sub-commander you would've gotten to know many of them personally, had knowledge of their backgrounds, commended some, punished others.

And yet there's essentially none of that in the game. The men are essentially cyphers, icons to be moved about. In fact the menu screens hold more human interest than the actual game. Your sub is essentially a cursor (albeit a very pretty cursor) that you direct in a virtual space (albeit a very detailed virtual space), with which you issue commands. Which in many ways, when it's all boiled down, is what you're doing when you're working, say, with a spreadsheet.

Ok, that's being flippant but to be plain about it, when my sub is being depth-charged I'm concerned (as you might expect). But not because the boat holds any characters in whom I've made an emotional investment - and they're in danger. I'm concerned because my big sub-shaped cursor is in trouble and I'll probably need to reload and so lose game progress and 'reputation'. You tell me which is the bigger tragedy, or the more harrowing. And why can't I have both in my subsim? Why can't I be concerned that I'll lose game progress and probably need to reload, but also have an emotional reaction to what should be a clear human tragedy?

I could understand this focus on the 'nuts and bolts' of the simulation in the old days of subsimming. Computer resources were at such a minimum that it often appeared as though your boat was deserted and it was you all alone working the dials. But now it's starting to look like a sort of wilful negligence - sort of 'well, this is how its always been done, so this is how we'll do it now'. And so bow-waves get more detailed, harbours get more buildings, the seabed gets (oversized) rocks and seaweed. But why this disdain for including the human element in a simulation that purports to be comprehensive?

I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth; 'you want to make our sim into an RPG!'. Well, no, I don't. But a bigger nod towards the men who make up your crew would be a welcome addition to the SH series surely? Just take a look at the forums. You'll find elaborate stories written up about simulated patrols, where the author has even written dialogue supposedly coming from the icons and wooden puppets they've see on-screen! That should tell you something.

alunatic · 08-07-07, 03:24 AM

Well if you want to make up life stories for 50 crew members be my guest and if you put it up for download I'll definantly get it but for me "knowing" my crew isnt that important but what is important for me is how much shipping rests on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

madjack · 08-07-07, 03:59 AM

Ah the internet.

Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response...

...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written.

Gotta love it

08-07-07, 04:57 AM

Thats an interesting idea. When i play i sort of rolplay it a bit when handing out medals. IE i only give medals to crewmembers that i feel played a vital part in my sucess.

But it would in deed be a cool feature to at least socialise with the officers. And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

AVGWarhawk · 08-07-07, 06:05 AM

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

madjack · 08-07-07, 06:15 AM

Quote:

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

capt_frank · 08-07-07, 06:23 AM

I really would like the option to plug on or two of them with my service revolver and toss their worthless arses overboard. Additionally, I would like to have my own icon so that I could give all the medals and accolades to myself.

Seriously.

Torpex752 · 08-07-07, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Quote:

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

Great ideas, and maybe someday when a game developer has the budget to hire programmers to do all this, and technical reps to guide them it will happen. I assure you I'm not blasting you....but for me.....having a proper damage control model and control panel along with a few other biggies is higher on the pri list than more crew members.

08-07-07, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Quote:

And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

Exactly - but perhaps it doesn't have to be something as extensive as that, perhaps it could just be a captain's personal diary ('2 days out from Pearl en-route to Honshu, Bob had his 42nd birthday today...) or an announcement from the cook ('meatballs for dinner tonight!') - something to better the immersion while you watch your little icon travel slowly across the nav map ('cause there's got to be a better way to handle that part of the game, game designer!)

well if its just a piece of text in your diary then its rather pointless. Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that:hmm:

madjack · 08-07-07, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

Quote:

The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.

But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

Quote:

I do not see how the human element would add to the game.

I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Quote:

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that

Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

EAF274 Johan · 08-07-07, 06:57 AM

SH4 contains many role-playing elements, like crew names, medals, promotions, individual morale status. In my opinion it is up to the player how to use them. When I play SH4, I try to pay attention to these things, e.g. I will try to remember the name of a crewmember who got injured or of the officer in charge of important repairs, and they will be on top of my list when medals are to be distributed.

So no, I don't think SH4 needs more role-plaing elements, they are already there. If you want to do without them you can just ignore them, but if you want to use them, you can

Of course there's always room for improvement, like the captain's log that was suggested (I like the idea!).

The only thing that really limits the way I feel about my simulated crew is the lack of crew speech. If my officers would give an audible acknowledgement of all orders, or if there would be some more random background speech (like cries when the boat is being damaged, coughing when there is a fire) I would have a much better feeling that I am in a boat with "real" people.

Takeda Shingen · 08-07-07, 06:57 AM

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

madjack · 08-07-07, 07:17 AM

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass'

ReallyDedPoet · 08-07-07, 07:17 AM

Welcome to SUBSIM

madjack

AVG is no hard-ass. Being civil goes along way here

RDP

Takeda Shingen · 08-07-07, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass'

So then it is acceptable if I judge you by your current avatar? Maturity, please. This isn't Ubi.

08-07-07, 02:46 AM	#1
madjack Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 9 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	The human element... I bought SH4 a few weeks ago. And it's often exciting and also deeply involving and yet...where's the human element, where's the human drama? Let me explain. My thinking is that as a commander of a sub, you would have been responsible for 30-40 men, cooped up in a metal tube in the middle of the vast ocean, in peril. To a man, they would have been looking to you to make the right decisions to 'take the fight to the enemy' but also, crucially, to bring them back to their wives, their children, their loved ones. As sub-commander you would've gotten to know many of them personally, had knowledge of their backgrounds, commended some, punished others. And yet there's essentially none of that in the game. The men are essentially cyphers, icons to be moved about. In fact the menu screens hold more human interest than the actual game. Your sub is essentially a cursor (albeit a very pretty cursor) that you direct in a virtual space (albeit a very detailed virtual space), with which you issue commands. Which in many ways, when it's all boiled down, is what you're doing when you're working, say, with a spreadsheet. Ok, that's being flippant but to be plain about it, when my sub is being depth-charged I'm concerned (as you might expect). But not because the boat holds any characters in whom I've made an emotional investment - and they're in danger. I'm concerned because my big sub-shaped cursor is in trouble and I'll probably need to reload and so lose game progress and 'reputation'. You tell me which is the bigger tragedy, or the more harrowing. And why can't I have both in my subsim? Why can't I be concerned that I'll lose game progress and probably need to reload, but also have an emotional reaction to what should be a clear human tragedy? I could understand this focus on the 'nuts and bolts' of the simulation in the old days of subsimming. Computer resources were at such a minimum that it often appeared as though your boat was deserted and it was you all alone working the dials. But now it's starting to look like a sort of wilful negligence - sort of 'well, this is how its always been done, so this is how we'll do it now'. And so bow-waves get more detailed, harbours get more buildings, the seabed gets (oversized) rocks and seaweed. But why this disdain for including the human element in a simulation that purports to be comprehensive? I can just hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth; 'you want to make our sim into an RPG!'. Well, no, I don't. But a bigger nod towards the men who make up your crew would be a welcome addition to the SH series surely? Just take a look at the forums. You'll find elaborate stories written up about simulated patrols, where the author has even written dialogue supposedly coming from the icons and wooden puppets they've see on-screen! That should tell you something.

08-07-07, 06:05 AM	#5
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,274 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

08-07-07, 06:57 AM	#11
EAF274 Johan Ensign Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gent, Belgium Posts: 228 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	SH4 contains many role-playing elements, like crew names, medals, promotions, individual morale status. In my opinion it is up to the player how to use them. When I play SH4, I try to pay attention to these things, e.g. I will try to remember the name of a crewmember who got injured or of the officer in charge of important repairs, and they will be on top of my list when medals are to be distributed. So no, I don't think SH4 needs more role-plaing elements, they are already there. If you want to do without them you can just ignore them, but if you want to use them, you can Of course there's always room for improvement, like the captain's log that was suggested (I like the idea!). The only thing that really limits the way I feel about my simulated crew is the lack of crew speech. If my officers would give an audible acknowledgement of all orders, or if there would be some more random background speech (like cries when the boat is being damaged, coughing when there is a fire) I would have a much better feeling that I am in a boat with "real" people. __________________ *Rock 'n' roll is the only religion that will never let you down*

08-07-07, 07:17 AM	#14
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,887 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	Welcome to SUBSIM madjack AVG is no hard-ass. Being civil goes along way here RDP __________________ Back in the Day

08-07-07, 03:24 AM	#2
alunatic Bosun Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana (I'm English though) Posts: 65 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well if you want to make up life stories for 50 crew members be my guest and if you put it up for download I'll definantly get it but for me "knowing" my crew isnt that important but what is important for me is how much shipping rests on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

08-07-07, 03:59 AM	#3
madjack Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 9 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Ah the internet. Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response... ...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written. Gotta love it

08-07-07, 04:57 AM	#4
Swede Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thats an interesting idea. When i play i sort of rolplay it a bit when handing out medals. IE i only give medals to crewmembers that i feel played a vital part in my sucess. But it would in deed be a cool feature to at least socialise with the officers. And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

08-07-07, 06:23 AM	#7
capt_frank Watch Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: In the North Carolina Sticks Posts: 335 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I really would like the option to plug on or two of them with my service revolver and toss their worthless arses overboard. Additionally, I would like to have my own icon so that I could give all the medals and accolades to myself. Seriously.

08-07-07, 06:57 AM	#12
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?