Is this it?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by scrapser

One thing I find encouraging though it the fact that many of us software consumers are also capable of fixing the product we are purchasing, if the companies would only start working with us to create a win/win situation. It's entirely feasible and would completely resolve the bug problem. It's like there's a huge resource right in front of them (free for the most part) and they don't see it.

The modding scene has come a loooong way...I remember the days of downloading DOOM 2 .wads and being impressed at what people did. Nowadays is just amazing.

I think you're right....if they give the gamer a framework, an engine, basically to work around, there are some very talented modders out there who can pick up the ball and run with it. Greater customization on the player end allows for each segment of the player base to get what they're looking for out of the game, such as the rivet counting realism nuts like myself to the casual "sail around and shoot up some stuff" gang. Greater player satisfaction equals more sales. But, like you said, if only the software companies would see it that way. Maybe they're afraid of someone taking what they did and creating their own game and competition in the market?

[AVGWarhawk]

bumscrumtiousness

Is the a word? Anway, this mod does not know the Developers from Adam. I happen to see all the good points in the game and most are good enough to overshadow the bad points. I guess these makes me a fanboy. If so, I live much happier as I'm not scowling over a game with some bugs. I have a house with bugs, a car with bugs, a dog with bugs, a lawn full of bugs. I do not need to scowl over a game with bugs. Even though I have all these bugs, I make the best of it and keep on living!

[heartc]

When SH3 came out, I didn't like the game. I didn't like it even before it came out. I was frustrated that it was going to be YET ANOTHER U-Boat sim, while I wanted to go back to the PTO, with SHI days in mind. When the game finally I arrived, I was following the forums and mentally noted down every small or big issue there was with the sim. I didn't post back then, I was only a lurker. But I was close to register, and most of my posts would have been how SHIII is incomplete, how AOD did it much better, how stupid the AI is, how easy the airplanes are to shoot down, how long the loading times are, how everybody is a graphic whore etc etc.
I only saw the bad points and issues with the game, for the simple reason that I just couldn't enjoy the good points because it was set in the wrong theatre, again.

Now, when you remember the whining by many prior to the release of SHIV, that it was NOT going to be a U-Boat sim for once, you can make a pretty good guess that a few people are still pi$$ed and act much the same as I "would have" with SHIII. Not all, but a good many. Be sure.

[scrapser]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The modding scene has come a loooong way...I remember the days of downloading DOOM 2 .wads and being impressed at what people did. Nowadays is just amazing.

I think you're right....if they give the gamer a framework, an engine, basically to work around, there are some very talented modders out there who can pick up the ball and run with it. Greater customization on the player end allows for each segment of the player base to get what they're looking for out of the game, such as the rivet counting realism nuts like myself to the casual "sail around and shoot up some stuff" gang. Greater player satisfaction equals more sales. But, like you said, if only the software companies would see it that way. Maybe they're afraid of someone taking what they did and creating their own game and competition in the market?

Company makes game. Consumer buys game. Programmer/consumer buys and mods game. It doesn't have to stop there. I'm certain there is nothing (legal or otherwise) that stands in the way of coming up with a completely new approach to developing and marketing software. It's obvious this is a niche market and therefore company resources are limited as a function of profit. Hence the squeeze to get the product to market and the difficulty getting bugs patched later. So why not get creative and come up with a new formula? Most of what's needed is already in place!

[TDK1044]

Here's another approach.

http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

[longam]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Is the a word? Anway, this mod does not know the Developers from Adam. I happen to see all the good points in the game and most are good enough to overshadow the bad points. I guess these makes me a fanboy. If so, I live much happier as I'm not scowling over a game with some bugs. I have a house with bugs, a car with bugs, a dog with bugs, a lawn full of bugs. I do not need to scowl over a game with bugs. Even though I have all these bugs, I make the best of it and keep on living!

You Should see the bugs in my yard



I was just looking at my rather large box of games I purchase over the years back when I was desperate to find something good to have on my system for entertainment. Almost all of the titles I purchased were a flash on the drive and shelved, not all but a large majority of them.

I stopped trying after Falcon4, and stuck with the classics like MS Flight Sim, a game I knew had quality to it. Then SH3 came along and It started all over again, only this time the huge support by the mod team (well U know the story). So I don’t really see any way this relationship between development and corporation will really change for the better, it hasn’t so far, and were talking a few years…like since 1986

[hyperion2206]

I agree that this game could have been 10 times better if UBI would have given the devs all the time and money they needed, but I'm still quite happy with the game. After all what other choices do we have? I'd rather have a slightly bugged game rather then having no game at all. I know if this was a perfect world our outrage about all the bugs would make UBI release a patch that fixes every problem, but this a mean world and I've come to terms with it.

[elanaiba]

You don't even have to go that far:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=174

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by hyperion2206

I agree that this game could have been 10 times better if UBI would have given the devs all the time and money they needed, but I'm still quite happy with the game. After all what other choices do we have? I'd rather have a slightly bugged game rather then having no game at all. I know if this was a perfect world our outrage about all the bugs would make UBI release a patch that fixes every problem, but this a mean world and I've come to terms with it.

I think the Boss said it best (and I paraphrase here)...

Whether you think the glass of water is half empty or half full... HEY, WE HAVE A GLASS OF WATER!

JCC

[stabiz]

:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Honestly, this is all I play. I decided that I enjoy enough to put all my efforts into getting modded up and worked on so it is the best SH Pacific that is offered. I find it a challenge to do so but the new patch and the modders make it all that much easier and all that much better of a game to mess with for the next 5 years. I want to spend my time growing with it until it is the best it can be. The game still has plenty of potential to be about the best to be had.

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by stabiz

Valid points, nevermind the fanboys.

This is a discussion board. Or it used to be, none of this fanboyism over in the SH3-section.

The mods are running wild to stomp on anyone who complains about something (because of the "excellent realtionship with the devs") and anyone not totally in love with SH4 gets branded "whiners" or just get the good old .

I like SH4, by the way.

It still is a discusion board. If having a great deal of respect for a Dev team who have produced a really good subsim within an unrealistic production schedule is being a 'fanboy', then count me in.

I don't think the Moderators care whether people love the game, hate the game, or are ambivalent on the matter; we do care about the tone of the threads.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by scrapser

This is not a rant.

It is if you were foaming at the mouth while typing it. Contextually, I can read this without imagining you foaming at the mouth, but not knowing you personally leaves room for interpretive error.

Unfortunately it was developed by people who use the metric system (not a negative remark)

So, you're upset with the conversion errors? Other than that I am unable to understand why you'd even mention it. Since I've been playing the game in metric, I haven't had to deal with the conversion errors. I'm pretty flexible on this issue (metric or SAE).

and funded by a company that has so many other ways to make money that its survival does not depend on making sure quality is there before putting products on the market.

Welcome to 2007, dude. Ubisoft is just as risk-averse as Boeing, Halliburton, and Universal Studios. Quarterly reports are the only thing that matter to stock holders in the current market. Deal with it.

SH4 would have faired better if it were developed by some little upstart company that had to do it right the first time.

They're all out of business (either bought by EA or Ubi) and the start-up capital requirements are prohibitive.

I bought the game the day it was released and still have not played it.

Don't worry about it, mate. I still haven't played through Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil, Titan Quest, the hardest level on Dungeon Siege 2, and a whole bunch of others that I can't even remember. Grandia 2. Gorsul 2. I think I've even got Total Annhilation 2 tucked back somewhere.

I patched 1.3 last night but today have started reading about the issues that still remain (mag torpedoes always on, transparent crew on deck, non-functioning periscope animation, to name a few). Incredible!

My mag-torps have been functioning properly since version 1.2. Download my cheats (from my signature) and use the 200m meg-det cheat. Fire a torp with mags on, and fire one with mags off. They are working properly, dude.

I realize it will never be 100% perfect but I have to tell you, the stuff that was wrong with this sim when it was first released (and even after the first patch) had me wondering how people who are smart enough to study historical submarine technology and translate that into a computer sim could let their code be packaged and put on market, knowing it was incomplete (and they had to know...some of this stuff is so glaringly wrong it would blind you).

You've got higher standards than me. If I could get the damn thing to work properly, I'd still be playing Silent Service II. I've been absolutely ducky with SH3 and SH4, besides the bugs that cause the game to be unplayable (crashing to desktop, unrecoverable slowdowns, savegame corruption, etc.).

Half-baked software is now the norm!

No, half-baked has been the norm since 2002. I personally blame competing proprietary standards, although I have little use for Next Generation Secure Computing Base for my computer because it effectively turns the thing into a console.

Should we as consumers be happy and grateful that a company has grudgingly decided to patch something they put on the market, knowing it was incomplete? Is that what we have become? Happy like dogs to get the scraps somebody decides to throw our way?

I don't know about the "scraps", but Knights of the Old Republic 2 still had some good things to it.

The solution here is to stop buying software from a company once it's known they will release incomplete products to the public.

Everytime you buy something, you are saying "Yes" to whatever it is...whether it be an incomplete piece of software or an overpriced house or condo.

I agree, but I'm more pragmatic than idealistic. I'm out of computer gaming at the end of this month. I figure I'm going to be ahead of Next Generation Secure Computing Base by about 14 months, and I've got enough games that I still haven't played to last me for at least 24 months. I'd buy a Wii if I could find one.

[scrapser]

Open source projects are a good start. Software companies by definition would not be attracted to them, though. I'm thinking of something like this...

A company announces a new title, owns the copyright for the story and any other aspects that make it unique intellectual property, and fronts the money and developers for initial development. Once that is completed and enough debugging cycles have been completed (or the startup finances are used up), the title is released with readme notes identifying the major issues. At the same time, a small group of people who have been identified and validated as legitimate and trustworthy pick up where the initial developers left off and continue the debugging process using feedback from everyone who now has the sim. They could be issued a special license, binding them not to release the source code they are working on. The company retains ownership of the original source code and any additions to it made by this team. They continue to collect on future sales of the title and pay a small royalty to the freelance team that's essentially finishing the code.

I think if something like this were made known to the general public, even more sales would be realized. You could buy something and feel confident most if not all issues would be addressed in time. Maybe even get to participate. With the current modding atmosphere, this is almost being done already.

Look at what happened with Falcon 4 (accidently) when someone illegally released the source code and someone named eRazor started examining it and reporting his findings. Eventually, a whole underground of developers started improving the game...not for profit but simply because the sim screamed for completion. I think SH3 and 4 are another example of quality "almost" realized and deserve the finishing touches. I know there are people here who would love to take on the work for the love of the task and nothing more.

If I remember correctly what happened with Falcon 4, Hasbro eventually met with a group of financiers and a representative of the underground dev team on neutral ground. The title was sold and the new owners formed a binding relationship with the underground dev team and together they continue to improve Falcon 4 to this day under a new name. That may not be exactly correct but it speaks of what's possible.

What does UBISoft stand to gain by freezing the development of the SH franchise when there is so much positive energy here waiting to be tapped? It just seems amazing to me that a new method of developing game software has not been hammered out. The landscape has changed so much over the years and yet the basic way software is developed from start to finish has not.

[scrapser]

Originally Posted by tycho102

It is if you were foaming at the mouth while typing it. Contextually, I can read this without imagining you foaming at the mouth, but not knowing you personally leaves room for interpretive error.

So, you're upset with the conversion errors? Other than that I am unable to understand why you'd even mention it. Since I've been playing the game in metric, I haven't had to deal with the conversion errors. I'm pretty flexible on this issue (metric or SAE).

Welcome to 2007, dude. Ubisoft is just as risk-averse as Boeing, Halliburton, and Universal Studios. Quarterly reports are the only thing that matter to stock holders in the current market. Deal with it.

They're all out of business (either bought by EA or Ubi) and the start-up capital requirements are prohibitive.

Don't worry about it, mate. I still haven't played through Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil, Titan Quest, the hardest level on Dungeon Siege 2, and a whole bunch of others that I can't even remember. Grandia 2. Gorsul 2. I think I've even got Total Annhilation 2 tucked back somewhere.

My mag-torps have been functioning properly since version 1.2. Download my cheats (from my signature) and use the 200m meg-det cheat. Fire a torp with mags on, and fire one with mags off. They are working properly, dude.

You've got higher standards than me. If I could get the damn thing to work properly, I'd still be playing Silent Service II. I've been absolutely ducky with SH3 and SH4, besides the bugs that cause the game to be unplayable (crashing to desktop, unrecoverable slowdowns, savegame corruption, etc.).

No, half-baked has been the norm since 2002. I personally blame competing proprietary standards, although I have little use for Next Generation Secure Computing Base for my computer because it effectively turns the thing into a console.

I don't know about the "scraps", but Knights of the Old Republic 2 still had some good things to it.

I agree, but I'm more pragmatic than idealistic. I'm out of computer gaming at the end of this month. I figure I'm going to be ahead of Next Generation Secure Computing Base by about 14 months, and I've got enough games that I still haven't played to last me for at least 24 months. I'd buy a Wii if I could find one.

Wow...from the looks of your analytic scapel work on my original post I would say you're a bit detail oriented. LOL But no worries, I just wanted to assure you I was not foaming at the mouth but do understand how a post can be vulnerable to interpretation. I'm mainly voicing my dismay at the current state of this hobby of ours and those who supply us with new titles. It seems ripe for a change that's long overdue.

Incidently, my computer gaming goes back to 1984. I've grown up with all of it from day one. I can still remember my first video game (PONG) at the local bowling alley in the late 70's.