[REL] Real Fleet Boat

[clayp]

I say that RFB is a great mod....

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Palidian

Maybe the ships you stated had what the game would consider a green crew, and you are basing a max ROF on a green crew, and then adding the green crew modifier on that?

The main basis for RFB's rate of fire at the moment is USS Wahoo - the most famous and (at the time of the engagement we're using as a basis for RFB's deck gun) arguably the submarine with the finest crew in the WW2 US Navy. Wahoo is ranked 7th in the list of subs in terms of number of sinkings and 26th in tonnage. The data comes from Wahoo's 4th war patrol - the patrol in which Wahoo was credited with the most tonnage of any of her patrols and one of the patrols that combined the talents of Richard O'Kane and Dudley Morton. O'Kane went on to command USS Tang and is ranked first in number of victories with 24 ships to his credit and is ranked second in tonnage destroyed. Morton is ranked third in terms of victories with 19 ships to his credit and 12th in terms of tonnage. Both men were at or near the height of their abilities during this war patrol.

Far from being a green crew, this was an elite crew at the height of their abilities. This is exactly the sort of crew that will give us the maximum possible combat rate of fire.

[clayp]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

I just don't understand why anyone would attack Beery (and even suggest fraud ) for his willingness to work on free mods to enhance our gaming experience.

All I can see this accomplishing is driving Beery away from continuing the good work and very possibly discouraging others (like myself) who may be contemplating various future modding efforts.

If you don't like or agree with a setting... change it or roll it back.

Excellent post blood....Lets all of us just close our ears to this other guy..Maybe a DC will get him...

[Bando]

Originally Posted by clayp

I say that RFB is a great mod....

[tedhealy]

An interesting anecdote from Dick O'Kane's book, Clear the Bridge!, about his command of the USS Tang.

pg 161

I still did not feel that a deck gun, in this age, was of much value to an attack sumbarine. During construction I had argued to at least have our gun moved aft of the conning tower. If an enemy ship had comparable or greater speed, it was axiomatic that she'd be able to outgun us. Our own gun would be used for defense, shooting astern.

Later, after warming up to the deck gun some, he continues after firing at some buildings on Japanese held Fais Island.

With 33 rounds expended, I ordered "Cease Fire!" The remaining 160 rounds we would save for Truk. The empty shell casings were kicked over the side, and we came to the navigator's recommended course for the atoll....The ammunition train had worked to perfection, for not once was the firing delayed.

Unfortunately, no mention of the time it took to do this is made in the book. But I did find patrol reports from Tang at http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/tang2.htm

April 24 (-9)

0600 As we were sufficiently ahead of schedule, changed course to close FAIS
Island, forty miles north of our track.
1000 Dived fifteen miles from the island and closed at four knots. As we were
aware of the reported gun emplacements, established the bearing line
between lookout tower and refinery as 128dT, then proceeded around the
island for bombardment by indirect fire. Surfaced in evening twilight with
lookout tower, our point of aim, bearing 308dT, range 7300 yards, and
1828 commenced firing 33 rounds of four inch. To insure crossing the refinery,
employed a rocking ladder of 200 and then 100 yard steps, and applied
deflection spots as previously computed to include other structures in the
installation. Though the results were not discernable, the shell
detonations sere nicely visible at the bottom of the ladders and the target
area was crossed several times. As expected, their guns, placed to protect
the installation on the west side of the island, were unable to return any
fire.
1845 Set course for new lifeguard station off TRUK at one engine speed.

So in roughly 17 minutes, they got off 33 shots at a target on land at range of 7300 yards. As mentioned by O'Kane in his book, he thought his crew was working to perfection. They got off almost 2 shots a minute for almost 20 minutes at a target on land that was not moving at extreme range. No mention of sea state unfortunately.

Once again, Beery's deck gun nails it perfectly. O'Kane has some further use of the deck gun this patrol, but the timing isn't recorded as well as this example.

[tater]

Note also that firing at a land installation is as close to "fire for effect" as you'll ever get on a sub. The exact aim doesn't matter, it's a bombardment, you go for beaten zone. So that is the rate that they can shovel rounds in without paying the least attention unless they were watching the shots fall (which they would by definition be doing vs ANY ship target).

BTW, I asked a guy (who currently works on simulating artillery for the US Army) about spec ROF vs combat ROF. Before he simulated such things for the military, he was an Army officer as well. He knows his stuff.

For your specific question on a sub deck gun...you also have environmental issues...the sub might be rolling in the sea state or the weather might be bad (never mind the effects of any return fire) and all this acts to slow down the ROF. In a higher sea state the ammo was usually not brought up from below until the last minute as extensive water exposure could and did result in duds on occasion...so you have the delay associated with passing the ammo to the deck crew in a manner thats less than optimal for ROF.

Take the logs as ground truth...thats the reality of using the weapon in combat...

tater

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by tedhealy

An interesting anecdote from Dick O'Kane's book, Clear the Bridge!, about his command of the USS Tang.

pg 161

I still did not feel that a deck gun, in this age, was of much value to an attack sumbarine. During construction I had argued to at least have our gun moved aft of the conning tower. If an enemy ship had comparable or greater speed, it was axiomatic that she'd be able to outgun us. Our own gun would be used for defense, shooting astern.

In a later chapter O'Kane also mentions that he was glad they didn't listen to him about mounting the gun on the back... but at that time I believe he was trying to creep in close to a reef to rescue some downed pilots and he found he was using it more for suppression and covering fire.

[tedhealy]

A few more patrol reports from

http://www.esryle.com/coblinks/links/PATROLREPORTS.html

USS Grouper

09:22 I battle surfaced to bring my deck gun to bear on the Coastal Tanker. Fired 17 rounds for 15 hits and sent this ship down (SUNK). SJ radar reported the Troop ship 5,200 yds dead ahead so I rang up flank speed to get in range for another deck gun action. Fired a total of 30 rounds for 28 hits (SUNK). After securing the deck gun I set course for Midway Island.

Don't know the time it took to fire the rounds or the approximate tonnage of the ships he sunk, but he sunk one with 15 hits and another with 28.

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

In a later chapter O'Kane also mentions that he was glad they didn't listen to him about mounting the gun on the back... but at that time I believe he was trying to creep in close to a reef to rescue some downed pilots and he found he was using it more for suppression and covering fire.

Yeah, he does warm up to the deck gun as an offensive weapon a bit later on, but still his thinking on it seems relevant.

[tater]

Under 1000 tons. Filled with gas, too

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by tater

Under 1000 tons.

Yeah, that would have been my guess too, something small.

[tedhealy]

Here's another interesting report from USS Segundo

(3)Rough sea would probably cause torpedoes to broach at the shallow depth
setting required. I then considered a gun action and decided against it for the
following reasons:
(1)Air patrols.
(2)Rough sea-too rough for gun's crew to be on deck,
(3)Lack of an ammunition scuttle limits me to the ten rounds of 5' that are in
the ready locker. Passing ammunition up through the after battery hatch is out
of the question. Passing ammunition up through the gun trunk is awkward in
smooth water and dangerous in rough water. These five inch shells weigh 100
lbs.

the second (3) interests me the most.

Beery's deck gun ROF and damage may not be 100% perfect, but they are damn close.

[tedhealy]

And last but not least

From the Darter

0545: Commenced firing with deck gun. Expended 30 rounds of ammunition. These appeared to
do little damage.
0558: Caught by plane in the unenviable position of lying to with 25 men topside. Submerged
with ammunition on deck and gun trained out. Heard two explosions which sounded like
small bombs. Plane apparently picked DARTER for target.

30 rounds in 13 minutes. A bit faster than 2 rounds a minute, but not by much. A ROF of one shot ever 25 to 35 seconds seems spot on to me from what I could dig up.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by tedhealy

A few more patrol reports from

http://www.esryle.com/coblinks/links/PATROLREPORTS.html

USS Grouper

Don't know the time it took to fire the rounds or the approximate tonnage of the ships he sunk, but he sunk one with 15 hits and another with 28.

Weird. I'm looking this up in my sources and I can't find any claim made for Grouper on that date (24 December 42), nor do I see anything confirmed on that date. Also, the commander's name is listed as Greg Turner but according to 'Subs Against the Rising Sun' Grouper's commander in December '42 was called McGregor.

Could this be some sort of paper and pen sub sim whose report mistakenly got added to a historical sub database? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen such a thing. Last month I nearly posted an account that looked extremely realistic, but on further investigation it became clear that it was a very realistic-looking patrol report made by a realism nut like us from a WW2 sub game.

[Fearless]

Originally Posted by Palidian

Well maybe if the ROF issue has been brought up so many times, maybe it is because that a lot of people have an issue with it, and maybe we are correct. You advertise this as a realistic mod, however in reality you even admit that it is not, you rely on other peoples mods that you have admitted are not quite right, maybe people feel that they spent time on hoping for a realistic mod, and feel that they wasted there time, time they will never get back. Some would call that fraud. You are correct if we don't like the mod we don't have to use it, however I would like to see something useful come out of it, it has some nice features or maybe we can go on to something else. However just laughing at people who dare to challenge your greatness shows contempt. You will find that people will not want to use your mod.

Enough already!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If your not happy with it, create your own mod. Where does fraud come into it anyway. Don't Like It, Don't Use It