Illegal immigrant labor bad or good for an economy?

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by August

......nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California).....

http://www.rense.com/general41/annex.htm (Read the sources on this one)

http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/Re...tio970719.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=27941

http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?Stor...2-011544-4757r

http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

http://www.rense.com/general41/annex.htm (Read the sources on this one)

http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/Re...tio970719.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=27941

http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?Stor...2-011544-4757r

http://www.illegalaliens.us/aztlan.htm

So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?

Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.

my 50cents worth...

You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here to solve the immigration problem.Jobs...better wages,etc etc....why would anyone want to move away if they were making good money,had access to good health care...etc etc...save for a change of pace then...

I am pretty much to the point of thinking you guys are silly to even think these problems can or will be solved by man...they are too big for any one human being to tackle...polution,starvation,disease,...it is spirialing down the drain already and beyond repair by man. And it is bacause of the greed of man,the selfishness.Men hate the light.

any chess players here?
can you see that far down the road yet?

Only one will or can restore order and it ain't gonna be a one world government either although that pitch is coming too...

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Iceman

So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?

Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.

my 50cents worth...

You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here to solve the immigration problem.Jobs...better wages,etc etc....why would anyone want to move away if they were making good money,had access to good health care...etc etc...save for a change of pace then...
\

PD

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by Iceman

So you are trying to tell me that 38 million Mexican illegal immigrants in America are here and part of a huge conspiracy to take over?

I'm not sure how many illegal immigrants are here in the U.S. but yes, they DO want a good portion of the Southwest U.S. to be annexed into part of Mexico.

Originally Posted by Iceman

Why are they coming here in the first place? Answer those questions and figure out a way to bring Mexico up to speed seems like a better answer...To assume this can't be done is why we are failing...seems to me Canada,America and Mexico need to get on the same page.

You have to take away the reasons why people want to come here...

They come here to vote, they come here for free social services, they come here for our jobs, and best of all is that they're not even punished for breaking the law!!

And the ways we can get them to stop coming is to completely close the southern border, re-institute immigration caps, deport ALL of the illegal immigrants that are here in the U.S., punish employers with 5+ years jail time for every illegal they hire along with the seizure of their business, revoke the 14th Amendment to eliminate "Anchor Babies" (there are no slaves to repatriate anyway), and revoke the citizenship of every anchor baby born on U.S. soil.

That will ultimately stop illegal immigration for good.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...t_the_thi.html

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

And the ways we can get them to stop coming is to completely close the southern border, re-institute immigration caps, deport ALL of the illegal immigrants that are here in the U.S., punish employers with 5+ years jail time for every illegal they hire along with the seizure of their business, revoke the 14th Amendment to eliminate "Anchor Babies" (there are no slaves to repatriate anyway), and revoke the citizenship of every anchor baby born on U.S. soil.

That will ultimately stop illegal immigration for good.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...t_the_thi.html

No. Nothing will stop a 20-1 wage difference attracting workers. There will always be a way to get through as long as there is such a reward. Short of minefields and shoot on sight(and this will never, ever happen) you just can't shut down the southern border. And you neglect a significant source of illegal immgration: visa overstays. Not every illegal just sneaks through our porous borders, it's quite expensive to have done properly.

I agree that employer sanctions need to be jacked way up, though. As of now they hardly exist.

The main problem with border policing now is the way politicians handle it. They will pour resources into their area so they can point to lower illegal crossover stats and leave other areas completely uncovered.

PD

[August]

I'd not be in favor of revoking anyones citizenship but no country can survive long with unrestricted immigration, especially in this day and age of ever increasing world population.

It's impossible to make Mexico a place people don't want to leave, unless we're either willing to lower our standard of living to theirs or take control of their country in order to apply our standard of living to them and neither option is acceptable.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by August

It's impossible to make Mexico a place people don't want to leave, unless we're either willing to lower our standard of living to theirs or take control of their country in order to apply our standard of living to them and neither option is acceptable.

I dunno, maybe. But I think we should at least try. Look at how much money we've thrown into the fire in Iraq.

PD

[Yahoshua]

Yes you can shut down the southern border (barb-wire, armed patrols and a quick detection/response team system). It all depends on whether people are willing to go through with this or not. And the way things are going, U.S. citizens are going to start doing the shooting to get things done because they're fed up with the inaction of the federal and state governments on the issue.

I know several people who are more than willing to shoot any illegal they catch crossing their land, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already killed a few.

And the only way that the mexicans will lose interest in coming north is for mexico to fix itself, and that really isn't our responsibility, it's the responsibility of the mexican people to do that.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Yes you can shut down the southern border (barb-wire, armed patrols and a quick detection/response team system). It all depends on whether people are willing to go through with this or not. And the way things are going, U.S. citizens are going to start doing the shooting to get things done because they're fed up with the inaction of the federal and state governments on the issue.

People are not willing to go through with this, certainly not pay for what is required. And what is required to shut down the entire border goes far beyond barbed wire, armed agents, and quick response. I'm pretty sure we do all three of these already. And politicians are only willing to do the bare minimum to get reelected. So I suppose, yes, in fantasy world it is possible.

I know several people who are more than willing to shoot any illegal they catch crossing their land, and I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already killed a few.

Cool. It isn't going to be a well regulated militia that solves this problem, though. Americans can't even be bothered to vote regularly.

And the only way that the mexicans will lose interest in coming north is for mexico to fix itself, and that really isn't our responsibility, it's the responsibility of the mexican people to do that.

I'll keep this thread on topic and not argue this point to its fullest. But I will say that I think the stability of our next door neighbors is VERY important (say, more important than another certain place), as it is for any other country in the world. Lest we want to end up fixing it when things go completely to $hit.

PD

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

People are not willing to go through with this, certainly not pay for what is required. And what is required to shut down the entire border goes far beyond barbed wire, armed agents, and quick response. I'm pretty sure we do all three of these already. And politicians are only willing to do the bare minimum to get reelected. So I suppose, yes, in fantasy world it is possible.

It's also possible in the real world, and we barely do ANYTHING on the border, let alone enforce our immigration laws.

Originally Posted by periscope depth'

Cool. It isn't going to be a well regulated militia that solves this problem, though. Americans can't even be bothered to vote regularly.

(I didn't say that was a good thing)

Originally Posted by Periscope depth

I'll keep this thread on topic and not argue this point to its fullest. But I will say that I think the stability of our next door neighbors is VERY important (say, more important than another certain place), as it is for any other country in the world. Lest we want to end up fixing it when things go completely to $hit.

PD

[/quote]

Yes, but Mexico is not our brainchild, and if the mexican people aren't willing to change their government for the better our efforts will be for naught.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

I agree that employer sanctions need to be jacked way up, though. As of now they hardly exist.

I believe that there is a Senator from Georgia that is supporting a state bill that will go after employers that hire illegals. But the question still is...

...what effect will it have? And if that program is adopted nationally, will we regret it?

Most people don't understand the depth of the problem. Over 1million illegals move to the US every year. At the hospital that I train, go to any floor that is being renovated and you will find 90% don't speak english (illegals). Go outside to grounds maintenance workers and its the same. The maintenance at my apartment is the same.

I went to by furniture today. At the pickup warehouse 60% of the workers only spoke spanish (illegals) and couldn't communicate except through their boss who was an Mexican that spoke English. The same happened today when my good friend hired movers. They showed up and only 1 of the 3 spoke English (illegals)...

... its is a complete taken over of the unskilled labor market.

[Reaves]

"THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!!"

Back to the pile?

Sorry couldn't resist.

[TheSatyr]

What is sad is the state of the Education System and Emergency Room System in Southern California.

Schools are overcrowded and underfunded, Emergency Rooms are being shut down because the State can't afford to keep many of them open,yet everyone is afraid to tell the truth on why all this is happening,because as soon as someone mentions "illegal immigration" they get branded as racists. But it is the illegal immigration population in Southern California that is bringing down the infrastructure here. What makes it even worse is the arrogance of many of them in their blatant refusal to learn english...added and abetted by local Mexican-American politicians who call any attempt at an english only law to be blatantly racist.. There is even a school out here in a primarily mexican american community that teaches kids about the "reconquista" and that the Aztecs and Mayans were peaceful nations and that whites are evil warmongers who not only took their land but made up the stories about Aztec and Mayan human sacrifices.

Back in the 80s a number of Latin-American politicians held a conference in Santa Monica and they stated their goals quite clearly back then. 1)Get as many illegal immigrants into the southwest USA as possible. 2)Stonewall and try to stop any meaningful attempt at stopping illegal immigration. 3)Get the illegals into the voting rolls by any means necessary. 4)Get a Mexican-American majority throughout the Southwestern USA .5)Get more and more Mexican-Americans voted into office,especially into State Legislatures and Governorships. 6)When everything is "in place" the attempt would be made to start the reconquista of the southwest USA back into Mexico through political means...which they viewed as the long term goal...even if if took 100-200 years to do.

THAT was the stated goal of that conference. Which managed to pass under the radar of just about every news organization back then. The LA Times did a small article on it but laughed it off as the dreams of a few nutcases.

Someone mentioned that they thought if illegal immigration kept up the people might take the law into their own hands and start shooting illegals? Uhm,it's already happening in Arizona and New Mexico. Farmers shooting illegals that cross their property and there was supposedly a group in Arizona that hunted down and killed illegals. I think they caught most of those guys though.

[Iceman]

Yea last comment on this subject...

I refuse to believe that the Mexican governmet can be likened to Iraq's fledgeling democracy...not that anyone has made this comparision but the lack of willingness to really sit down and hammer it out with Mexico seems to be the problem...

We can not "Assume" anything with them...the other solutions such as shutting down the border is ridiclous...it sends the wrong message.We need to be realistic and approach this from a different angle.

Sending them home will not work...get over it...and believe it or not I was in this camp as well but after alot of thought it is not prudent or wise to even consider this course....

What else then...humm let's see....shoot them?...mine the border?
again....this is silly and seen as such I would hope.Why not make Mexico an equal and a force to reckoned with just as America and Canada are.

I like the proverb..whosoever doth not gather together scattereth abroad.And whosoever doth not build up teareth down....really this is what you are advocating...I advocate tearing down the wall all together because there really isn't even one there anyways....

A bargin/deal/treaty/compact/accord/article...needs to be constructed between Mexico and America and I include Canada as well as we are all neighbors....I think the time is for great men to do great things....men worthy of rememberance such as Lincoln and the founding fathers of America....we need to get it right.

[NefariousKoel]

I'll share something I posted elsewhere on the subject:


I have met, worked with, had regular customers and experienced daily, (etc.) immigrants from England, Australia, Germany, Ukraine, Russia, Pakistan,Iran, India, China, Japan, Korea, Liberia, Kenya, and on and on.

They all knew the language enough to speak it, and unlike these illegal deadbeats here, they had a ****in' job and made a living like the rest of us. They were quite commendable and happy to be here.

Unlike the hordes of illegal Mexicans who show up in packs of 4 or 5 at all times of the day usually trying to pay the only legal relative of their's spanish channel satellite bill and asking me if they need ID to get a cell phone plan. Not to mention the old ones buying steaks at the grocery store with food stamps paid for by the public.

They are not in the cities, they are hiding out in the small towns. All the real immigrants were in the city when I lived there and I was none the wiser at the time to the increasing problem. The usual legal immigrants who worked for a living were in the city and I admired them for making a new life. Now that I've moved back to the middle of nowhere, I see that at least 40% of the population here is Hispanic and a good portion of those are illegals who have no intent of becoming an American, but getting freebies off the horribly run gov't and continue being Mexican.

It speaks volumes when the immigrants from Brazil, Honduras, Belize, Venezuela.. what have you... get seriously offended if you even imply that they are "Mexicans", though the real deadbeats from those countries have been flooding in quite a bit recently too since they've learned of the free gov't cheese to be easily had in the US at honest citizen's expense.