Radio waves interception

Qppralke · 05-28-07, 03:53 AM

Hi there.
There was a guy on our team forum. He joined our game and he did not like the rules of communication.

The rules are:
We have general (surface) channel on ventrilo server. And Every sub has it's own channel.
They have the keys binded to enter the surface channel , but only when their antenna is up. And on the periscope depth or higher of course.

You get the idea ?

The guy argued , that subs never use radio. Which sounds a bit odd to me . . .
But the discussion emerged, about intercepting radio transmissions from sub's.

Anybody got info about it ?

I was thinking about making the radio antenna -> a sensor . With waves detectable by ESM , just like radar.

But, the first thing is, I don't know how realistic it is. And secondly : I managed to make the sensor , but I could not replace the playable antenna. So it did not work . . .

Any ideas ?

LoBlo · 05-28-07, 07:31 AM

I've always wondered about it as well. I remember reading somewhere (a while back so I don't know where) that subs can link to satellites with "directional" transmission (sorta like direct TV I'm assuming, unless someone corrects me) so that they can point their signal to the satellite receiver they want to make it harder for their transmission to give away position.

That being said... I'm sure its still possible for a fairly techno-capable enemy to somehow detect the transmission... either by backscatter of the noise of transmission or by its own spysats picking up some of the radiowave scatter off the atmosphere that will probably, at least roughtly, give the sea/ocean where the transmission is coming from if not greater.

These are all just assumptions of course given what is capable with modern technology seems reasonable.

I've always wondered if some sorta of ultra-refined "Laser Communication" exist where a sub can litteraly point a very fine laser at one and only one satellite that no one else can pick up (an example of how it would work would be a laser pen light, you can't see where the laser came from, only the reflection of where it hit). Intuitively hat would be a secure way to communicate, but would probably be very heavily dependent on atmospheric conditions.

SeaQueen · 05-28-07, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qppralke

I was thinking about making the radio antenna -> a sensor . With waves detectable by ESM , just like radar.

But, the first thing is, I don't know how realistic it is.

It depends on the nature of the transmission. Highly directional transmissions, such as those used to communicate with satellites are unlikely to be intercepted. Omnidirectional signals are very likely to be intercepted, and you're right, you can DF them just like a radar signal. That's useful information all by itself.

The thing is, these sorts of systems are not only battlefield sensors but also intelligence gathering devices, and as such are most likely considered top secret.

Henson · 05-28-07, 05:58 PM

You won't get any answers to this one.

Cyklop · 05-29-07, 03:47 AM

The subs never use radio? So why do they come fitted with radio equipment?

ESM may be used to detect, intercept, direction find, etc. any sort of radio transmission. Whether it is a navigation, identification or communication system, its emissions are detectable. It is only a matter of how far and how easily - search google for low probability of detection or low probability of intercept and you may find out more.

Any vessel, whether surface or subsurface, will make its detection by enemy easier if it transmits signals - acoustic or electromagnetic (you can also think of chemical, thermal, etc) . VLF radio systems make it possible for submarines to receive information when submerged (there are limits to the depth where it's possible) so that they can remain 'stealth'. However, I suppose that any commander will be happy to use VHF radio while entering a harbour or during Medevac.

These days submarines may be fitted with HF and VHF radio communications systems. Some may use VLF receivers. Some may use SATCOM at UHF or other bands, too. There's a lot of unclassified data available on internet.

How one uses these assets, is another matter. For what we do, which is just having some fun online, I believe the players should agree on the comms methods before starting the game. Forbidding the subs to talk or chat for realism sake will reduce the fun factor. When I hear these guys complain that 'subs don't use radio' I feel like asking them to play a mission where they have to spend three months glued to the computer listening to surface traffic without firing a single torpedo.

We will always have to make a choice between realism and enjoying the game. Combining the two is not likely to work, whatever type of simulation concerned.

Dr.Sid · 05-29-07, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henson

You won't get any answers to this one.

I see .. I read it like this: We have pretty cool undetectable laser sat-link

As for in-game communication, here is my design:

1) 1 public channel which everybody could read, for game organization purposes (bye guys, I'm leaving). Everybody can read this, so it can't be used for cheating, or at least all would know about it.
2) Simulated com links .. radio, laser, underwater telephone. You would have to setup the device (frequency especially) and then listen or send data or messages. If nobody is listening on that frequency, your problem. The idea is realism again.

I know you still can cheat by other communication software, but at least game should not make it so simple.

SeaQueen · 05-29-07, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I know you still can cheat by other communication software, but at least game should not make it so simple.

You'd also have to model the directionality of the transmission and encryption (unless you want players to invent their own one-time keys)

SeaQueen · 05-29-07, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyklop

When I hear these guys complain that 'subs don't use radio' I feel like asking them to play a mission where they have to spend three months glued to the computer listening to surface traffic without firing a single torpedo.

Yeah... in most MP scenarios, there's definitely a lot to be desired regarding realism.

Dr.Sid · 05-29-07, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I know you still can cheat by other communication software, but at least game should not make it so simple.

You'd also have to model the directionality of the transmission and encryption (unless you want players to invent their own one-time keys)

Sure thing ! And quality .. imagine messages with every second character messed up !

Janus · 05-29-07, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyklop

When I hear these guys complain that 'subs don't use radio' I feel like asking them to play a mission where they have to spend three months glued to the computer listening to surface traffic without firing a single torpedo.

Yeah... in most MP scenarios, there's definitely a lot to be desired regarding realism.

For me it is perfectly okay to have a custom mix of realism and "gamey" behaviour in MP. It is more fun for me to be able to see all allies and being able to talk to them in teamspeak for example.
Alghough I would not say that it would be a bad thing (funwise) to have more realism sometimes in MP in areas that are not directly part of DW.

05-28-07, 03:53 AM	#1
Qppralke A-ganger Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: from Poland , in Wales . . Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Radio waves interception Hi there. There was a guy on our team forum. He joined our game and he did not like the rules of communication. The rules are: We have general (surface) channel on ventrilo server. And Every sub has it's own channel. They have the keys binded to enter the surface channel , but only when their antenna is up. And on the periscope depth or higher of course. You get the idea ? The guy argued , that subs never use radio. Which sounds a bit odd to me . . . But the discussion emerged, about intercepting radio transmissions from sub's. Anybody got info about it ? I was thinking about making the radio antenna -> a sensor . With waves detectable by ESM , just like radar. But, the first thing is, I don't know how realistic it is. And secondly : I managed to make the sensor , but I could not replace the playable antenna. So it did not work . . . Any ideas ? __________________ Last edited by Qppralke; 05-28-07 at 04:12 AM. Reason: spelling

05-28-07, 07:31 AM	#2
LoBlo Subsim Diehard Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas! Posts: 971 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 3	I've always wondered about it as well. I remember reading somewhere (a while back so I don't know where) that subs can link to satellites with "directional" transmission (sorta like direct TV I'm assuming, unless someone corrects me) so that they can point their signal to the satellite receiver they want to make it harder for their transmission to give away position. That being said... I'm sure its still possible for a fairly techno-capable enemy to somehow detect the transmission... either by backscatter of the noise of transmission or by its own spysats picking up some of the radiowave scatter off the atmosphere that will probably, at least roughtly, give the sea/ocean where the transmission is coming from if not greater. These are all just assumptions of course given what is capable with modern technology seems reasonable. I've always wondered if some sorta of ultra-refined "Laser Communication" exist where a sub can litteraly point a very fine laser at one and only one satellite that no one else can pick up (an example of how it would work would be a laser pen light, you can't see where the laser came from, only the reflection of where it hit). Intuitively hat would be a secure way to communicate, but would probably be very heavily dependent on atmospheric conditions. __________________ "Seek not to offend or annoy... only to speak the truth"-a wise man

05-28-07, 05:58 PM	#4
Henson Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 185 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	You won't get any answers to this one.

05-29-07, 03:47 AM	#5
Cyklop Seaman Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: visual, aural and nasal Posts: 37 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The subs never use radio? So why do they come fitted with radio equipment? ESM may be used to detect, intercept, direction find, etc. any sort of radio transmission. Whether it is a navigation, identification or communication system, its emissions are detectable. It is only a matter of how far and how easily - search google for low probability of detection or low probability of intercept and you may find out more. Any vessel, whether surface or subsurface, will make its detection by enemy easier if it transmits signals - acoustic or electromagnetic (you can also think of chemical, thermal, etc) . VLF radio systems make it possible for submarines to receive information when submerged (there are limits to the depth where it's possible) so that they can remain 'stealth'. However, I suppose that any commander will be happy to use VHF radio while entering a harbour or during Medevac. These days submarines may be fitted with HF and VHF radio communications systems. Some may use VLF receivers. Some may use SATCOM at UHF or other bands, too. There's a lot of unclassified data available on internet. How one uses these assets, is another matter. For what we do, which is just having some fun online, I believe the players should agree on the comms methods before starting the game. Forbidding the subs to talk or chat for realism sake will reduce the fun factor. When I hear these guys complain that 'subs don't use radio' I feel like asking them to play a mission where they have to spend three months glued to the computer listening to surface traffic without firing a single torpedo. We will always have to make a choice between realism and enjoying the game. Combining the two is not likely to work, whatever type of simulation concerned.