Unresolved Issues...

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Disclaimer: Before we go any further, dear reader, I would like to inform you that the sole intention of this post is to complain. Not about Silent Hunter IV:Wolves of the Pacific specifically, but about this section of the forum, it's members and moderators, and the attitudes and opinions herein. So, before you go posting a "Not another one of these threads' type of response and blow the dust off your rolleyes smiley, you have been forewarned. If you feel compelled to complain about my complaining, send me a PM and I shall quite happily entertain any suggestions you may have as to where I might go and jump off of. I would ask that people try to remain courteous to each other, and even though you may not agree with what someone else posts, they have the right to a little respect for their opinions just as much as you do.

Firstly, I have to ask, since when does limiting discussion on a particular topic help solve anything? I refer of course, to the 'Stop F in Moaning !!!!!' thread below that has recently become locked. Is there a feeling that if we are prevented from discussing the issues that topic brought up, that they will all just go away or some other naive notion? Contrary to what some may think, locking a thread and expecting things to magically mend themselves and disappear just isn't going to happen. TDK1044 definitely made the wrong call. This is an unresolved issue if ever I have seen one.

Secondly, there is a serious air of discontent about this place since SH4 has been released. The game is buggy as hell, and in a lot of ways a huge step backward from SHIII, and this is causing huge conflicts between various sections of the community. To be quite honest, it's damnright disgusting to see people engage in pissing contests with each other, each trying to be even more sarcastic and funny than the other. Have you folks forgotten that this is Subsim.com? We don't do this sort of crap here, and if you expect to do this and get away with it, moderator or not, you are very sorely mistaken. This needs to be adressed right here, right now because ornery, decent members of the community don't want to have to read this kind of nonsense.

Thirdly, I think it is highly hypocritical of certain Moderators, namely John Channing and Gizzmoe (both of whom I had the highest respect for up until today) to be seen to allow and support the arguments of someone who tells everyone that he/she is perfectly happy with the game and to blatantly tell us all to "Stop F in Moaning!!!!!". Regardless of whether or not you both have grown tired of people complaining about this game, condemning the badly written threads complaining about the game and not condemning the badly written threads complaining about complaining about the game is rather like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think? You both say constructive criticism is fine and that rudeness is not and yet people are allowed to tell us to "Stop F in Moaning !!!!!" and not only do you not stomp on it, you support it? There was a comment made that you can have any opinion you like on these forums, as long as it's the same as the moderators and in light of how this issue has been handled, can you blame anyone for agreeing with this? It's almost like the things you condemn about one type of posts you ignore in the other, just because you happen to agree with that post. Please try to be consistent!

Lastly, people will complain if they are not satisfied with a product, something we all do. But everyone needs to post consistently, constructively and politely if your voice is to be heard. Post crap and you will most likely be ignored, whatever you are trying to say. My dearest wish is that those who try to out-smartass the other guy in some spur-o-the-moment pissing contest can take their head out of their selfish asses long enough to afford each other a little respect and courtesy, like everyone else tries to.

***Edited for clarity***

[Scoochy]

Originally Posted by Karl-Heinz Jaeger

..........My dearest wish is that everyone can take their head out of their selfish asses long enough to afford each other a little respect and courtesy.................

well...there's some respect and courtesy for ya

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Scoochy

well...there's some respect and courtesy for ya

I don't understand.....are you implying that I am not being respectful and courteous because I used the phrase 'head out of their asses'?? If so, you misunderstood. Is it acceptable for people to engage in selfish arguing that amounts to little more than a thinly veiled exchange of sarcastic witticisms? No, of course it isn't and thats all was trying to say.

[Scoochy]

As an afterthought, posting a reply in this thread was probably a mistake as I do not intend on getting into a thread whining about the whiners.

Back to playing with .dat's and enjoying SH4 for what it is right now.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Scoochy

As an afterthought, posting a reply in this thread was probably a mistake as I do not intend on getting into a thread whining about the whiners.

Back to playing with .dat's and enjoying SH4 for what it is right now.

Sorry, Scoochy but labelling me as a 'whiner' just doesn't cut it. If you have something to say, by all means say it but if not then I would ask you to respect my opinion and not apply convenient labels to me just so you don't have to take me seriously. To call my post a whine about whiners is like calling the Statue of Liberty a French chick in a toga. I would prefer if you didn't belittle my efforts to address an issue which quite obviously affects every one of us here in this community. Please be part of the solution, and contribute something positive instead.

[Fearless]

Point taken Karl. Everyone can express their opinion no matter how it comes out. You'll find if it gets out of hand, it does get stopped one way or another.

Not having a go at ya though, what I don't understand is why you started your thread off with a quote "Disclaimer" unquote. That's the first time I've ever seen that in any thread in any of the forums I belong to :hmm:

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Thanks Fearless, I appreciate your comments posted above, Shipmatey. As you say, everyone has an opinion and is indeed entitled to express it. The problem lies in how that opinion is being expressed, something which is an issue for BOTH sides of the debate. I just don't think this has been universally recognised and/or adressed and wanted to point that out.


As to the Disclaimer, just wanted to be up front with everyone about the post content, saves people the bother of having to wade through my rantings unless they really want to.

[Chock]

Probably a mistake to get into this, but nevertheless; I think that what Scoochy was pointing out was that your opening post quite clearly labels 'everyone' as having their head up their selfish ass. And if that isn't a sweeping insult, then I don't really know what is.

This is compounded by your later reply which conveniently dropped the word 'everyone' in an attempt to steer away from having posted your previous insult, by claiming that you merely used the phrase 'head out of their asses', rather than the fact that your post aimed that particular comment at everyone.

To then imply that someone used a convenient label, following an opening post that labelled every forum member as selfish and with their head up their ass, is frankly so ridiculous that it beggars belief.

If you are going to try and portray yourself as the voice of reason, throwing an insult at everyone on the forum is not a great way to start.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Chock

Probably a mistake to get into this, but nevertheless; I think that what Scoochy was pointing out was that your opening post quite clearly labels 'everyone' as having their head up their selfish ass. And if that isn't a sweeping insult, then I don't really know what is.

This is compounded by your later reply which conveniently dropped the word 'everyone' in an attempt to steer away from having posted your previous insult, by claiming that you merely used the phrase 'head out of their asses', rather than the fact that your post aimed that particular comment at everyone.

To then imply that someone used a convenient label, following an opening post that labelled every forum member as selfish and with their head up their ass, is frankly so ridiculous that it beggars belief.

If you are going to try and portray yourself as the voice of reason, throwing an insult at everyone on the forum is not a great way to start.

Fair comment, but again I am being misunderstood. Perhaps it's the way I worded it. Would it be clearer if I had said 'My dearest wish is that those who try to out-smartass the other guy in some spur-o-the-moment pissing contest can take their head out of their selfish asses long enough to afford each other a little respect and courtesy, like everyone else tries to'??

Considering the point I am trying to make, does it not seem unduly hypocritical that I would embrace an attitude which, as you say, insults everyone in one grand sweep and then attempt to 'portray myself as the voice of reason'? It would indeed beggar belief and border on the ridiculous. To use an old adage, I may be stupid but I am not drunk!

Having tried to impress upon you, with honesty and clarity exactly what my intentions were, can you now see my post for what it was intended? In all fairness, I believe a thanks are in order. I think I will edit my original post to make things clearer so as not to confuse the issue any further, so thank you for bringing that up.

Edit: D'oh! Now I have the Medic forum avatar! Nooooo!

[Condor96]

I kinda agree with ya Karl, but anytime ya post something there is always some bonehead is gonna reply with some lame response, albeit they are just stupid or they just wanna yank yur chain and see if they can piss you off,for there own satisfaction,and there are a number of them here that do that.Maybe they are OK with getting rippped off for a game that dont work hell its only 50 bucks.. like to hear them piss and moan if the got ripped off for something else that didnt work, like a car or something,, principal is if you buy something you expect it to work. Im kinda tired of all these apolojetic pinheads too.Overlook the dipsticks and dont let em get to ya, they are happy wallowing in crap.

[Condor96]

Originally Posted by Chock

Probably a mistake to get into this, but nevertheless; I think that what Scoochy was pointing out was that your opening post quite clearly labels 'everyone' as having their head up their selfish ass. And if that isn't a sweeping insult, then I don't really know what is.

This is compounded by your later reply which conveniently dropped the word 'everyone' in an attempt to steer away from having posted your previous insult, by claiming that you merely used the phrase 'head out of their asses', rather than the fact that your post aimed that particular comment at everyone.

To then imply that someone used a convenient label, following an opening post that labelled every forum member as selfish and with their head up their ass, is frankly so ridiculous that it beggars belief.

If you are going to try and portray yourself as the voice of reason, throwing an insult at everyone on the forum is not a great way to start.

Another self-respecting moderater wanna-be

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

Originally Posted by Condor96

I kinda agree with ya Karl, but anytime ya post something there is always some bonehead is gonna reply with some lame response, albeit they are just stupid or they just wanna yank yur chain and see if they can piss you off,for there own satisfaction,and there are a number of them here that do that.Maybe they are OK with getting rippped off for a game that dont work hell its only 50 bucks.. like to hear them piss and moan if the got ripped off for something else that didnt work, like a car or something,, principal is if you buy something you expect it to work. Im kinda tired of all these apolojetic pinheads too.Overlook the dipsticks and dont let em get to ya, they are happy wallowing in crap.

Condor96,

I agree with what you are saying in principal, the game is unfinished and buggy and none of us should expect to pay money for an unfinished product etc, but as I have said above how a person words his post makes all the difference. To call everyone whose opinion differs from yours and my own 'apologetic pinheads' and 'dipsticks' who 'piss and moan' is counter-productive and belies an attitude that really doesn't belong anywhere on these forums. Furthermore, it's bound to have a negative impact on the underlying message I am/we are trying to put across. How can anyone expect to take seriously, someone who insults and scorns the rebuttal of our fellow members? In all honesty, it amounts to little more than mud slinging and trolling, and thats not what Subsim is about. If I were you, I would apologise and hope that the moderators are lenient.....

[Chock]

Yup, that's right, all my posts clearly indicate that I'm a self-respecting moderator wannabe Condor, there are dozens of them. Oh, wait a minute, erm, no there aren't.

If coming to the defence of literally everyone on the forum, for having been insulted (regardless of their opinions pro or against the original post) makes me a self-respecting moderator wannabe then it's a very sad state of affairs. Just what were you trying to achieve with that comment?

[Skyhawk]

I couldn't agree more with the OP of this thread. One other thing I might add is that it is also wrong to treat those with low post counts as non-status members of this SubSim.com "community". For well over a year I have been frequenting these forums. Hell, I just read a response by a "senior" member here yesterday who specifically called for people to quit starting new threads on the same topic while in the same post bragging of only starting 5 threads in his entire time here as a registered member. In my book, 5 original threads isn't a helluva lot more than 0. If the criteria used here is strictly a question of numbers and or post counts. Never had that impression before now, maybe I was wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

I especially liked when an idle threat was made at me with a comment something like "I think I know who you are." What a joke, I mean c'mon, you think you know who I am? Do you know that I am a veteran of the U.S. armed forces? Do you know what I did for a living before retirement? Do you know how many kids I have? If/where they go to college? Do you know I've been married for 29 years?
etc., etc., etc.

To make sure I am not making an erroneous assumption, if you were referring to my username on the UBI boards I've made absolutely no effort to "hide". A simple IP check will verify that for you, /lrn2useurtools instead of calling other people "tools".
Truth is, you know nothing about me, so quit making erroneous assumptions. Especially when you make insulting assumptions intentionally designed to convey a condescending attitude towards those that disagree with you no matter how well spoken. But I digress . . .

As a matter of fact after I encountered pretty much the same attitude over at the UBI forums by it's "senior" members and moderators and grew tired of it, I even made a POSITIVE reference to this forum (which had been reasonably level-headed and objective up to that time) and stated I would no longer post at the UBI forums as I preferred a "community" that would devote it's energy to helping others get the most enjoyment and use from this software. That is as opposed to spending an unjustified amount of their energy stifling any and all gripes RATHER THAN showing a bit of understanding for the problems users were encountering and at the least being supportive with some appreciative humor and some sincere suggestions. I'm not stating that no sincere suggestions or appreciative humor has been offered here, I'm saying that all to often it is not offered when dealing with those expressing problems. Yup, you may get tired of fielding the same questions, but I guarantee you will catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

So, long story short, I start posting at UBI, get completely disrespected (by way of a very personal attack from a moderator over there), make a positive reference to this place and never go back to the UBI forums (still haven't been back and never will go back). Now, since the time I have been exclusively monitoring this forum again, I've seen the same thing happen here, and felt compelled to only participate twice, both times to speak up about the rudeness, double-standard, and one very caustic remark (to which the mods response was that the members enforced the standards well enough, and that time heals - that is insensitivity to the maximum, I'm certain had the remark been directed at the moderators at least a temporary suspension stood a small chance, likely followed with a quick thread lock, again, the double-standard). By the way, if the members enforce the standards here well enough then why is there a need to lock threads? Double-standard maybe?

In closing, I do hope, there is hope for this game for it's loyal followers. I do want to see this program become everything that all it's users would like it to be as I blindly wish bugs and frustration on nobody. But here I am, a reitired old-fart with plenty of time to kick in and make a contribution to the effort, but reluctant to do so because I'm COMPLETELY turned off by the most vocal of the "senior" members and moderators here. Hell, if I help this "community" with the next "latest and greatest" mod, I'll only be enabling the moderators and "senior" members here to have a pulpit to continue preaching from. I freely admit that my knowledge of people and leadership is limited to a degree, but I do know that leadership by example is a helluva lot more effective, than leadership with a double-standard. No way I have any desire to be a part of condoning what has been going on around here with any further participation (que the "then why are you posting now?" responses, lol /bmoreshallow, I'm trying to be part of the solution with a final effort at opening some eyes around here, sorry, not a parting shot for those who interpret this response in that way, again /bmoreshallow).

@ Moderators,

You really need to check each other once in a while. Posting a sarcastic reply which contains nothing more than grammatical corrections in response to ONE OF YOUR MEMBERS, is just being intentionally rude (to wit, the words, there/their are two different words, /learn2context, didn't that feel nice?). You will resort to just about anything to defend this software for the sake of not abusing/angering the developers. How about using the same energy towards ALL your own members? And that definitely goes for the "senior" members of this "generous and amicable community" that should know better as well. More often than not you use a different demeanor but similar method of attack as the very posters you are reprimanding. Speaking in absolutes, being intentionally rude/sarcastic, etc. You can tell someone to "step off" as nicely as you want, but if you are still kicking them in the arse as you show them the door it amounts to the same thing. Doesn't matter if a moderator says it, a "senior" member here says it, or a member with a low post count says it, the meaning is exactly the same in every instance.

Definition of a "senior" member here - A member with a high post count (I guess)

This time my exit will be final, I've already removed SHIV from my computer and thrown the packaging and disks in the 4ebay pile, so that I will not even be tempted to return to look for mods, news of patches, etc. at any time in the future. Because the program is unsalvageable? No way, not a chance, it's because I truly do not wish to cross paths with the likes of this "community" again either here on these boards or over at the UBI boards.

Do you even think now, after reading this reply, that it's possible your actions have caused at least one long-time reader/supporter, and possible "community" contributor to leave these forums for good? I seriously doubt it, you (and you know who I'm talking about), know to much to ever let that happen.

C'ya.

/clickonclosebox POOF!!!

[shad43]

I can't even find the words...this thread useless