OT Debate: If you were karl Donitz ....

[AndyW]

Interesting points and Bindolaf beat me in commenting the inability of the Luftwaffe to raid convoys or docks on England's West Coast.

But a lot of that "What if instead" alternatives seem pretty expensive to me for the German side, so why bother and not following the big solution from the very beginning: Making the Luftwaffe and Navy strong and capable of conducting "Operation Sealion"?

That would have won the Battle of the Atlantic for sure.

Cheers,

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by AndyW

Interesting points and Bindolaf beat me in commenting the inability of the Luftwaffe to raid convoys or docks on England's West Coast.

But a lot of that "What if instead" alternatives seem pretty expensive to me for the German side, so why bother and not following the big solution from the very beginning: Making the Luftwaffe and Navy strong and capable of conducting "Operation Sealion"?

That would have won the Battle of the Atlantic for sure.

Cheers,

Sealion was never going to be a reality. It was a hoax from start to finish.
Even Churchill knew it. Churchill's biggest dilema in 1940 was not how to stop invasion by the Germans but how to stop certain members of the British Ruling Classes from making a peace deal with Hitler.

As for the german Navy being strong enough to challenge the Royal Navy with the Z-Plan....forget it. It takes more than numbers of ships to build a fleet. Sailors , Engineers , officers etc are what is required and in large numbers. Royal Navy had a large merchant fleet to choose experienced officers and men from as well as the British coastal towns. Germany had a small Merchant fleet and isn't really a maritime nation.

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by Bindolaf

A bold move - and one that would have resulted in disaster. How many DDs would a u-boot sink? A convoy is moving in, with 3 escorts. Sink all of them? How many torpedoes would that leave for the convoy? Sink one? What good is that? The other two will depth charge you for hours anyway.

Well I would assume that with the concentration of U-boats there would be more than 1 U-boat engaing the convoy.

[_Seth_]

Hmmm...interesting, but difficult question, mates... Its hard for me to imagine how to do this, considering my present knowledge of the war in general.. It will be easy for me to state my hypotetical opinions about this, based on all the things i've learned trough the years, but putting myself into Dönitz' place... its to difficult for me..Of course, there is some things i would have changed due to what i know now, but i think Dönitz did whatever he could do, considering the limitations he had to operate under..
Good question, btw! Makes you think..

[STEED]

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Move to New York, convert to Judaiism, start a jewelery shop, and name him Ira.

:hmm:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by STEED

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine.

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

By 1945 Britain would have had better Ships and sensors to fight not just the U-Boat but the Z-Plan ships also.
HMS Vanguard would have sunk the Bismark and Tirpitz no problem. KGV class ships were merely a stop gap until the Lion Class was built. Even then the KGV Class had better armour protection than Bismark and the 14inch guns were more accurate. Combine them with better British Radar and you have a winner.


As for the TypeXX1 U-Boat....was apparently not as good as has been made out. Its technology was never proven in battle and may have been a waste of resources. Looked good though.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by sandbag69

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

Far from it, don't forget the Kriegsmarine always came third for materials and they gave it there best shot.

[sandbag69]

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

[STEED]

Originally Posted by sandbag69

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

That's because the Allied convoy system had not been perfected.

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by STEED

That's because the Allied convoy system had not been perfected.

Took until Mid 1943 to perfect ASW tactics. He had the time and resources to blockade Britain but failed miserably.

He only had to reduce Britain's imports to a ceratin level for a coupel of months and the game would have been up.

[Jimbuna]

The merchant navy never lost any more than 2-3% of there vessels....ships were taken 'under ownership' from other countries and new vessels built which almost always meant that losses were replaced quicker than they could be sunk

[CaptainAsh]

I would have kept three styles of submarine warfare :

The wolves packs

First of all I would have set a complete different communication system. With only one way long distance communication, from BdU to u-boat. It was almost useless for BdU to get repport from the wolves but really dangerous for the wolves to give them.
I would have work on a special sub model to work as sub BdU on the wolves pack level. Each wolves would have been asked to make repport on a short communication radio to the special sub every 2 days and the special sub could have send grouped pack's repport to BdU. As this sub would have been nothing more than a mobile radio station, my priority would have been to make it as sneaky as possible... forget about offensive potential.

The suppressing warfare

I would have had a fleet of sub with minelaying capacity with the only mission to set mines on every port when it's possible (maybe 10 modified type VII).
I would have had a heavy mining campaing into the med, not to suppress the ennemy's port but to make any landing on europe by med hazardous even before the troops landing.

The long course warfare

Donitz dislike the type IX and the way it was use to hunt solitary ship. I would have use them on a specific hunt. Tanker on the other side of the ocean without any communication from the sub. No repport before the journey back.

[AndyW]

Originally Posted by sandbag69

Sealion was never going to be a reality. It was a hoax from start to finish.

Er, sorry, but I always thought that "Sealion" was seriously considered and not a bluff from the very beginning. Adolf issued a Führer directive (No.16), the Army, Luftwaffe and Navy were actually seriously preparing (and not just pretending to do so) for the various possible X-days and all were busy until the Kriegsmarine came up with a "reality check" from thier side (July 28, 1940) raining on the invasion parade by telling then that shipping the troops over the Channel would take a ridiculous long time and they can't support and secure a broad enough LZ. Then the Luftwaffe failed to gain air superiority ("Adlertag" August 13, 1940 ff.) and at least from that day on "sealion" was blown off and just kept as a bluff.

Cheers,

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The merchant navy never lost any more than 2-3% of there vessels....ships were taken 'under ownership' from other countries and new vessels built which almost always meant that losses were replaced quicker than they could be sunk

I'll try to remember to look in Battle Of The Atlantic tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that new merchant aquisition didn't come close to equalling losses until late 1943. Even Churchill felt that if the Americans didn't help soon with construction that Britain might starve.

If Doenitz had had as many u-boats as he wanted it could have made a difference.