America Less of a Democracy Every Day...

[Ark]

Originally Posted by August

Please stay out of my country.

lmao

[letterboy1]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Already stated, ignored

If you responded, you didn't ignore.

[letterboy1]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

We've been down this road before I tried looking for one of my earlier posts regarding this but to no avail. So to sum it up the United States of America is a Constitutional Republic.

Thanks for the correction.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government.

As long as "the people" retain the ability and the courage to overthrow the current government, by force. Yes. The people have absolute control.

As with so many other things in life, it is pain of death that serves as balance.

Americans have neither the courage, nor ability, to enforce absolute control. I am not entirely sure where it was lost, but I suspect in the early 30's at the height of the depression. Perhaps that is just where it started.

[Sailor Steve]

I never know where to start with threads like this. I tend to be more conservative than liberal, and to a point I even agree with ASWNut and Waste-Gate. The problem I have is when anybody on either side claims to know, absolutely, what's right and what's wrong, whether morally or with the country. Even the founders didn't claim that kind of knowledge.

Yes, the wording in the Declaration proclaims our natural right of self-government, even to the point of armed revolution; but if you know anything about the events leading up to the War of Independence, you'll know that the original patriots did everything they could to circumvent Parliament while still maintaining loyalty to the King. In effect, they wanted independent government while still remaining British, which would have made America the first Commonwealth nation. They didn't declare independence until the King himself proclaimed them to be in a state of rebellion and sent in the regular army.

In an thread a few weeks ago I said that this wasn't the first time people on one side or another have said the country is "going to hell in a handbasket". That time I was told "No, this time it really is"! Well, people thought so back then too.

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

asw america could still be a great country hell it could still be a superpower, but problem that brought/bringing ur country down.. is capitalism, lookat wut its done to china, now u got pissed off iranians and a army of 300 million chines solders with ak47s few hundred thousand tanks (100,000+) and a hell of a lot of nuclear capable weapons, best thing for america is revolution arm the citizens and depose of the whole government and redo everything following the constitiution like before.

hell my parents wanted to go to the states, but when they decided to move to new country they took canada, because of free education and health care, but now they want to go to states, but problems are plaguing them from moving such as terrorism issue, and the failing economy.

Could you please explian to me how Capitalism (a form of economy) relates to what I said? Even though I was drunk, I belive I got my point along well enough for others to understand.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
I am not trying to blame the Dems or the Reps. I was trying to get along the fact that from what this country started on, alot has changed, and not much for the better.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

I did not claim myself to be right, nor did I blame (intentionally) anyone else. If the links posted relate to democrats (Seriously, I can't remember), then I assume it was unintentional.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

And what do half of these have to do with what I'm talking about?

You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

So I cannot voice my opinion?

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

No, I don't.

[Aimbot]

We've been a republic from day one. Thanks for playing.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Because the US Congress spends money like drunken sailors and blames it on the president. And the dumbed down, circus and bread people believe the lie.

Right. So the President sends the armed forces accross to Iraq, says to Congress "Fund our troops or you are unpatriotic", refuses to bring them back, and backs Congress into a corner despite the turning tide of political opinion. Yea, the budget is all Congress' fault. In the mean time while the US is burning money in other countries AND deploying an army that costs billions, the Congress has to also manage the needs of the domestic population by giving them health care, education, roads, police, hopitals, and anything else that's demanded in the so called first world but it all has to be on a war time budget.

You know if the US is to be constantly at war with whatever phantom is spooking the western world this year then how can you not spend money in Congress? The US spends money in peace time as if it were at war. You can't break even that way.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Right. So the President sends the armed forces accross to Iraq, says to Congress "Fund our troops or you are unpatriotic", refuses to bring them back, and backs Congress into a corner despite the turning tide of political opinion. Yea, the budget is all Congress' fault.

Yes, it is. Congress' job is to help fund the troops, not attempt military-level decisions (In this matter, troop pull-outs). As you say below, they also help fund our health care, education, ect.

In the mean time while the US is burning money in other countries AND deploying an army that costs billions, the Congress has to also manage the needs of the domestic population by giving them health care, education, roads, police, hopitals, and anything else that's demanded in the so called first world but it all has to be on a war time budget.

Let's just say there's alot of money to go around...

You know if the US is to be constantly at war with whatever phantom is spooking the western world this year then how can you not spend money in Congress? The US spends money in peace time as if it were at war. You can't break even that way.

But, who does that money go to? We are in national debt, which many-a-country is, so who do we pay it to? Also, we are not "constantly at war" with people, even if they are at war with us.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

I've noticed this here as well, from both sides. I'm saying "both sides", because even though there's a Rubik's Cube of positions among posters here, arguments descend into posters assuming the worst, and reacting to the most ridiculous statements, instead of proper argument and discussion.(example, the general reaction to gnirtS's comments about intelligence in the military)
I'm quite guilty of this myself.
*sigh*

Sailor Steve, big thumbs up

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

But, who does that money go to? We are in national debt, which many-a-country is, so who do we pay it to? Also, we are not "constantly at war" with people, even if they are at war with us.

Yes the US is. The US is deployed around the world and not just in Iraq or Afghanistan. Plus the cost of running an occupation with a volunteer army during peace time (because war was never declared though it is always called war) is huge. The cost of arms that it takes to create and support an army that can invade and occupy a nation at any time with little notice is a recurring cost in and of itself that never goes away even if the troops pull out.

The Congess can take whichever actions it feels necessary to achieve the ends it feels are in the best interest of the nation. And if the congress is responsible for the budget then it is also responsible for considering what it is spent on. You cannot decide how to spend money without consciously considering its purpose. The Congress is not a rubber stamp for the president. It is a check and a balance.

And the money goes to whoever it is owed to. But it is possible to have a budget, a military, a social welfare system, AND a surplus. Clinton did it, the Liberals in Canada did it. Today Canada is participating in Afghanistan and we aren't in massive debt and we have a better social welfare system than the US despite having a smaller GDP.

[August]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

But it is possible to have a budget, a military, a social welfare system, AND a surplus. Clinton did it,

Uhm no he didn't.

The US budget surpluses of the 1990s were based on highly optimistic (to be kind) revenue projections.

That's like saying "I expect to win the lottery next year so I can budget spending 100,000 dollars a month now".

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

'nuff said; I understand.

So I cannot voice my opinion?

Oh, you can and should. I love debate, and I love searching all sides of an argument. As I said, I only get contentions when people state their arguments or opinions as if they were absolute fact, and anyone who disagrees is de facto wrong.

But, you gave the reason above and I apologize if I overreacted.

[1mPHUNit0]

He understand