US periscopes at night

[CruiseTorpedo]

So I've been reading Clear the Bridge! and they mention a lot about not being able to use the periscopes at dusk and through the night. Said when they looked through them it was just pitch black. I'm wondering if SH4 will be the same way? Does anyone know what the big difference was between the uboats periscope vs US subs that allowed the uboats to use their's at night?

[birdy]

i dont know anything about the difference between german scopes and US scopes
but i hope its not in sh4, very annoying when you cant see a thing, you will have to surface to see targets and then they will see you:p

[Jimbuna]

The German (ZEISS) optics were and still are world famous so I'd be suprised if the Americans were better :hmm:

[Chief of the Boat]

From my reading the only thing a 'scope was used for at night was to double check the Sound-Man's 'all clear' for surfacing....

COB

[Psyon]

they would use the SJ radar [if equipt] for a third sounding board so to speak for the all clear..
at 25ft, most SJ's are clear from the water and that represents a very small bump on the water for someone to notice.

of the periscope attack run pictures i have, none are at night, only one was at dusk [a hit on a merchant est..4165 tons..still can make out what they were hitting though]
EDIT: just took another look after all these years, yes, heh, can barely make out the merchant, just sillouete looking

on a clear night sky with the moon in the right spot, one could use the scope i would think.

pops never mentioned using the scope at night though [except for checking all clear i would imagine], all night manuevers were surface attacks or for getting into a favorable position on a convoy.... i guess?

[Snowman999]

Originally Posted by CruiseTorpedo

So I've been reading Clear the Bridge! and they mention a lot about not being able to use the periscopes at dusk and through the night. Said when they looked through them it was just pitch black. I'm wondering if SH4 will be the same way? Does anyone know what the big difference was between the uboats periscope vs US subs that allowed the uboats to use their's at night?

I've used the USN's Type II scope, which was a late-war US design. On moonless nights all you see is black unless the target is burning running lights, when you can get a very rough AOB. A wartime convoy ought not be using lights.

On full-moon nights, or very clear nights with stars, you can make out targets at maybe 2000-3000 yards, but probably not well enough to make a decent attack. More just blobs. Games have always made a lot out of moon-no-moon conditions, and the moon does put out a lot of light, but starlight shouldn't be underestimated. I've been on a darkened bridge hundreds of miles from land (no runnning lights) and the Milky Way was bright enough to read dials by. I've never come close to that kind of sky on land, even in mountains. It was spectacular.

WWII night surface attacks were the norm, but games, all the way back to Silent Service, have had a hard time making the trade-off between monitor capabilities and detection range circles. WWII patrol reports tell of US subs being well inside 1000 yards and remaining undetected, but games commmonly have detection ranges far outside that band.

As far as U-boat scopes they were very good, but if there's no light source no scope is going to work no matter how great the optics. It can only collect what light is there. That said, a PC monitor is never going to accurately recreate what your eye can see, especially in the area of depth perception.

[CruiseTorpedo]

So you think SH4 night time scope will be just as visible as the one in SH3?

I think it would be wrong but like you said games have a hard time with the detection stuff. If the scope is all blacked out perhaps the only way to do it in SH4 would be get in position at night then submerged attacks in the morning. Or for the more darring try surfaced attacks but later in the war I bet this would be very difficult to do in the game. From the recounts of actual patrols it sounds very dangerous but not impossible and results from night attacks seem to be better than day time as the ship can run it's full speed on the surface.

[Steeltrap]

According to Dick O'Kane in Wahoo (p78),

"great emphasis was placed on slender periscopes that are difficult to see....you can't have it both ways: our small-tipped scope (the attack scope) was good into twilight, and the larger (search scope) into brighter nights....ours was a defect that could not be rectified overnight"

So US subs were pretty well blind after twilight unless there was strong moon/clear nights. They made their night attacks on the surface.

If the SH4 developers have done their homework, this should be simulated at higher difficulty (I seem to recall seeing a 'realistic sensors' option).

[Snowman999]

So you think SH4 night time scope will be just as visible as the one in SH3?

We'll see. One thing to consider (probably not modeled though) is there's a lot more phosphorescence in warm PAcific water than there is in th eAtlantic.

I think it would be wrong but like you said games have a hard time with the detection stuff. If the scope is all blacked out perhaps the only way to do it in SH4 would be get in position at night then submerged attacks in the morning.

Night surface attacks were favored in the PTO. All the tactical advantage lies with the sub. The problem in games has been a desire to not make them too hard for most players, or too slow to develop, so games have changed the distance-detection-accuracy-reaction-time mix away from reality. For example, how long does it take a surface target to return with gun fire in SH3? Seconds. In relaity gun crews had to muster, cast off guns, load, train, etc. It took some time. SH3 also makes even tramp steamers detect at about 1300 meters more or less. Without radar, on a dark night, that's too far out. But it gives the AI a fighting chance.

Another thing that's hard to AI-model is convoy panic after a first attack. SH3 mods addressed this a bit, but stock SH3 has ships sailing placidly onward even as their mates explode next door. Panic was a sub CO's friend; it allowed him tactical options to flee or to displace in the melee so ASW assets had to begin again. For the best example I know of look up USS Parche's night surface attack where Cdr. Red Ramage won his MOH. Utter panic exploited to the Nth degree. Here's the citation, but I've seen plots of the maneuvers--wild, to say the least.

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Parche in a predawn attack on a Japanese convoy, 31 July 1944. Boldly penetrating the screen of a heavily escorted convoy, CDR Ramage launched a perilous surface attack by delivering a crippling stern shot into a freighter and quickly following up with a series of bow and stern torpedoes to sink the leading tanker and damage the second one. Exposed by the light of bursting flares and bravely defiant of terrific shellfire passing close overhead, he struck again, sinking a transport by two forward reloads. In the mounting fury of fire from the damaged and sinking tanker, he calmly ordered his men below, remaining on the bridge to fight it out with an enemy now disorganized and confused. Swift to act as a fast transport closed in to ram, CDR Ramage daringly swung the stern of the speeding Parche as she crossed the bow of the onrushing ship, clearing by less than 50 feet but placing his submarine in a deadly crossfire from escorts on all sides and with the transport dead ahead. Undaunted, he sent 3 smashing "down the throat" bow shots to stop the target, then scored a killing hit as a climax to 46 minutes of violent action with the Parche and her valiant fighting company retiring victorious and unscathed."

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Snowman999

SH3 has ships sailing placidly onward even as their mates explode next door. Panic was a sub CO's friend; it allowed him tactical options to flee or to displace in the melee so ASW assets had to begin again.

I've just finished reading two excellent books on Atlantic warfare, and am right now in the middle of a third. Great emphasis and training was placed on Allied convoys maintaining proper formation and NOT panicking. It did happen, but a lot less than some people like to think. The convoy Commodores were highly trained, and by mid-war so were all the merchant captains. According to every source I've seen, nine times out of ten they did indeed maintain formation.

As for the periscopes, you can argue all day that the Germans had better optics, but when the lens has to be that small to avoid detection, it doesn't work at night. The Germans also favored night surface attacks, primarily because they couldn't see anything through the periscopes!

[Snowman999]

I've just finished reading two excellent books on Atlantic warfare, and am right now in the middle of a third. Great emphasis and training was placed on Allied convoys maintaining proper formation and NOT panicking. It did happen, but a lot less than some people like to think. The convoy Commodores were highly trained, and by mid-war so were all the merchant captains. According to every source I've seen, nine times out of ten they did indeed maintain formation.

OK, granted, but you should still see flank speed and some zigging ordered in the middle of an active attack. Or at least zigging. Early-war attacks should have displayed some pacic as well, but I see no change from 1940 to 1945 (when I die gloriously.)

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I completely agree about the zig-zags; they left that out completely. "All ships now come to course 050!"

And, on occassion the Commodore would actually order the convoy to break up and meet at a pre-arranged location. Rare, but it did happen.

[geetrue]

Radar depth was 45 feet and that would work for me ... I'm the captain now (when Sh4 gets here) and I will surface under them if I have to ... scope's were only used for final bearing and shoot anyway ... 5 to 7 seconds.

Plus most boats charged batteries at night and if they detected a convoy on radar, the plotting team would inform the captain how far in front they had to be to have a firing solution ... they would then race ahead on the surface to get into position.

Periscopes are for candy asses ...