The benefits of Multiculturalism in Britain

[DAB]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

True british being the people that were born in england, if your born in england dosnt that make you english regardless if your pearents come from pakistan or india or some where else?

So us Welsh and Scots shall does go away shall we. The English were immigrents once as well I would point out. In fact, the welsh word for the English means immigrant.

Originally Posted by Narcosis

What a load of crap !

What a fundermentally grounded debating position you have there.

Originally Posted by Narcosis

n theory. But people who understand what really is going on in our country. Understand that Muslims dont give a Sh*t about our country, only their religion.

Hence why 1,000s of young Mulsims are trying to kill us.

As evident by the recent trial of one scum bag (out of 24 on trial) and the london bomber scum bags.

Lets play a numbers game shall we. The 2001 Census noted there were 1.6m people living in the United Kingdom who identified themselves as belonging to a Muslim denomination. Now the report you've linked too (which doesn't actually say what you want it to say I should add) only says thousends. Odds are he means a figure of say 4,000 - but lets take the theoretical maximum he could mean by that and say MI5 are watching 9,999 muslims. That equates to MI5 monitoring (at the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM) 0.62% of the Muslim population. The figure is likley to be closer to 0.31% - Hardly a fifth column!

Originally Posted by Narcosis

Unfortunately like Dab above.
A lot of people do not understand Islam or its teachings and continue to walk in limbo.
They don’t believe that Mohammed murdered people and had a wife of 9 years old and had black slaves and had an army that went on killing sprees.

So until they do our country will continue to head towards the abyss

Oh, Mohammed killed in the name of his religion, i'm sure. But there again, Pope Julius II famously did the same thing (Popes by the way are Gods representatives on Earth and everything they do is Gods actions), and need I remind you of the traditional Christian method of spreading the faith.

Mohammed had a wife of 9 years? Wasn't that the age of Margaret Beaufort in the 15th century (hint, 500 years after Mohammed) when she married Edmund Tudor (who was close to 40). Certainly Margaret had only just hit 13 when she fell pregnant with the future Henry VII (who by the way Kaptain was Welsh)

Mohammed had black slaves!? Wow, what a revelation, wasn't slavery common in Britain in the 18th century come to think of it. As for raging armies that go on killing sprees. The British Army was accused of that in the 1970's!

I think though I have a good understanding of Islamic Practice, if not its teachings - you can not share a house with muslims for two years and share an office with one without getting to grips with the fundermental philosophies - especially when you both enjoy religious debates.

You can't judge my religion based on Leviticus (and don't tell me no one takes any notice of that book of the bible - Its quoted every other day in Christian debates on Homosexuality etc), so I wont judge anouther religion based on a couple of passages in a book written 1500 years ago.

Get over it, people from anouther society are in your country. We've been dealing with homegrown terrorism in this country for 500 years, and I for one am not going to score an own goal by discriminating against members of my community and driving them into the hands of my enemies.

[Aguecheek]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Thats my narrowminded intolerant view and I'm sticking to it.

Interesting outsider's perspective on some of British culture. However, there are just a few of points it might be worth raising:

they have a queen

Anyone living in this country as a citizen is automatically a subject of Her Majesty. I believe new immigrants have to take an oath these days anyway.

Brits talk funny and depending upon the region it's nothing more than unintelligble gibberish especially when they're pissed

Brits these days move around a lot. One of my best friends have a strong Wigan accent, another is a Scouser. Both live in the same town now. So, what can be said about them? Well, they do "talk funny" depending on the region they're from. Arguably then, so do any imigrants. They merely talk with the accent they were born to, same as any other brit.

And find me one person who doesn't talk unintelligble gibberish when they're pissed.

drive on the wrong side of the road

Again, find me an immigrant who goes around Britain driving on the right hand side. That is a new one on me! (Incidently, driving on the left is statistically safer as for right handed people it means your strong hand is the one that doesn't leave the wheel... so perhaps it's not the wrong side).

enjoy a higher cost of living than here in the colonies

Any immigrant living here enjoys the same cost of living as anyone else in the country.

they can drink you under the table

Not all of them. One of the most classically "British" men I know is teetotal.

love to brawl

Only football fans. And not even most of them. Are you criticising imigrants for not being violent enough now?!

have a diet of some the most aweful tasting food ever known to mankind.

The nation's favourite dish is actually statistically either chinese or curry...

Some jerk born in the UK living in such a way that would make mohammed proud is not a Brit.

Not even if, whilst obeying the Koran, he respects the Queen, uses the accent of the area he was born in, drives on the left, pays the higher cost of living, is teetotal, eats the national dishes, (actually thinking about this, my local chippy is run by immigrants...) and is proud to believe his is a Brit?

I'm afraid your argument isn't holding water.

[Rockstar]

First off it's not an arguement, my association with brits was when I sailed with them aboard their frigates in the caribbean. Sorry I should have pasted a smiley so you would get it.

Not even if, whilst obeying the Koran, he respects the Queen, uses the accent of the area he was born in, drives on the left, pays the higher cost of living, is teetotal, eats the national dishes, (actually thinking about this, my local chippy is run by immigrants...) and is proud to believe his is a Brit?

However I will argue this, If a so called 'brit' is obeying the Koran he then follows Sunnah, listens to the Haddith and adheres to the doctrine of al-Tariyya . He has no respect for the authority of the Queen, your laws, culture or you. He is not as he may appear.

One who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us

You (a muslim) belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.

Hadith Iman Jafar Sadiq

[DAB]

So, your saying that everyone who follows a religion follows it unerringly to the letter, follows a litterol interpretation of everything that is said and seeks to enact everything that is written?

[STEED]

So he got 40 years big deal that means in the real world 20 years thanks too the CPS recommendations and don't forget time spent in custody resulting in a further reduction in sentence. And a possible appeal.

At the end of the day he's got access to TV and DVD films and a radio and Cd's and all the rest, let us not forget he will not be paying tax.

Yea right British justice, what a joke.

[Kapitan]

1) i love to drink
2) i love to brawl
3) i am part british only by a piece of paper in my passport
4) there isnt one yet

[Aguecheek]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

However I will argue this, If a so called 'brit' is obeying the Koran he then follows Sunnah, listens to the Haddith and adheres to the doctrine of al-Tariyya . He has no respect for the authority of the Queen, your laws, culture or you. He is not as he may appear.

Are you suggesting a white christian brit who, say, commits murder, (not usually considered to be a part of our cultural identity) is also no longer british?

[Rockstar]

I said some jerk living in way that would make mohammed proud does.

You say "well he is a good muslim" or that "he is a bad one" by what means or authority do you make this judgement? Contrary to popular belief those who you have judged as a good muslim will also die at the hands of the true believer of Jihad al-faasiqueen. Unless of course their trembling lips can persuade the believer they feared for their lives at the hands of the kafir.

As long as a muslim lives in a country where Islam is the minority deception is allowed.

The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir and tortured him until he uttered foul words about the Prophet (Muhammad), and praised their gods and idols; and when they released him, he went straight to the Prophet. The Prophet said: "Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir said: "Bad news! They would not release me until I defamed you and praised their gods!" The Prophet said: "How do you find your heart to be?" `Ammar answered: "Comfortable with faith." So the Prophet said: "Then if they come back for you, then do the same thing all over again." Allah at that moment revealed the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith... [Surah 16:106]"

Mohammed encourages lying and blaspheme and to deny their beliefs if it protects them as long as they were "comfortable with faith."

Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith.
Ibn Abbas

[Rockstar]

If he believes in Jesus Christ his purpose and calls himself a Christian he still battles against the old man and sin.

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He will pay his debt according to the laws of the land. It is why Jesus prevented Peter from killing those who came to take Christ at Gethsemane. Jesus knew the punishment for murder was death.

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

I do not say this to make an excuse for the 'Christian' to commit murder. It is against the will of God our savior to do so. But it may happen and if it does he will pay for it one way or another.

Also a Christian is also a citizen he is commanded by the God of Issac to pray for his leaders, to obey and fear the powers that are in authority over him those powers ordained of God.

[DAB]

Rockstar.

You take the broadest definition and widest interpretation of the words of the Bible, and then use the narrowest, most distorted definition of the words of the Koran.

Is your faith in Christianity really so shaky that you can not abide a rival doctrine?

If you believe, you believe, and you do not have to rationalise that belief. But neither should you have to distort anouther religion to try and make yours look better. It just looks like your afraid your own beliefs will not stand up to scrutany.

[Aguecheek]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

If he believes in Jesus Christ his purpose and calls himself a Christian he still battles against the old man and sin.

All that you say may well be true - I'm no theologin - but it wasn't quite what I asked.

Your premise appears to be that a person is not British if they do not conform to British culture, and we have pretty much agreed that it is difficult to point at individual elements of British culture and agree on their intricity. Therefore, in order to identify British culture, it must be done by looking at what model of it would include.

I'd say that no-one would say that murder is a part of British culture, but, if your argument is followed, it would be the case that a person who commits murder is then no longer british and this is patantly not true.

[Rockstar]

Egads man it's their words not mine how have I distorted it? Really you need to look at more than the Quran to understand Islam. The Trodden path (Sunnah), and the Sayings of Muuhammed (Hadith), Sirat (biography) literature it is where you see much of what I've spoken about here you will not find it in the Quran.

Open your eyes lad read it all compare it with what you see happening today nothing is distorted.

[Aguecheek]

Call me crazy... but wouldn't looking at Muslims be the best way to understand Islam?

[DAB]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Egads man it's their words not mine how have I distorted it? Really you need to look at more than the Quran to understand Islam. The Trodden path (Sunnah), and the Sayings of Muuhammed (Hadith), Sirat (biography) literature it is where you see much of what I've spoken about here you will not find it in the Quran.

Open your eyes lad read it all compare it with what you see happening today nothing is distorted.

Quite a measured response considering how some would have replied to my last post.

What I'm saying is that you are not acknowledging that many muslims take a methophorical approach to what the Koran says, just as many christians take a methaphorical approach to the Bible. If I read the bible litorally, then I must take action to stop my sisters wearing clothes made of two threads, I must not eat crops grown alongside other crops.

According to the Bible, Rape is a property crime. If you commit rape, you are to be punished, unless you marry your victim in which case you haven't devalued the fathers property and thus you need not be punished. Now I find that obhorrant. Don't you. I don't acknowledge that I have to live by that creed, and I doubt you do too.

So why do you not give a follower of Islamic Tradition the same sort of break.

[Yahoshua]

Brits talk funny and depending upon the region it's nothing more than unintelligble gibberish especially when they're pissed

When you think about it, the Britons are speaking English correctly, but those of us here in the states have an American accent .