Russia objects to Nato expansion

[Happy Times]

Russia objects to Nato expansion

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5407106.stm

[Happy Times]

Putin fury at Georgia 'blackmail'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5405756.stm

[Yahoshua]

Welcome back Comrade Putin.

How is the Motherland?

[XabbaRus]

Fair point, why does NATO need to expand? There are other ways and treating Russia like the bad boy doesn't help. You see it end up as a self fulfilling prophecy.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Fair point, why does NATO need to expand? There are other ways and treating Russia like the bad boy doesn't help. You see it end up as a self fulfilling prophecy.

That's right. Blame the victim.

Of course, there are at least 2 opinions here as to who is the victim here.

Here's another question: why does Russia care if NATO expands to include at least 2 states that have been badgered by Russia for years to cowtow to Russia's whims? Never mind. Question answered.

[DanCanovas]

i love reading the Avon Ladys responses. To the point and always clear. She says what she feels no matter how harsh! Are you really female!? :rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by DanCanovas

Are you really female!? :rotfl:

I take checkups annually. No change.

[aaken]

Here's another question: why does Russia care if NATO expands to include at least 2 states that have been badgered by Russia for years to cowtow to Russia's whims? Never mind. Question answered.

Let's see...uhmmm....maybe because those countries were under the sphere of influence of Soviet Union/Russia? Maybe because they are neighboring with Russia? Maybe because NATO could represent a threat to Russia's interests?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by aaken

Let's see...uhmmm....maybe because those countries were under the sphere of influence of Soviet Union/Russia?

Well, that sure would convince me to move to the competition once the shackles have been removed. And you?

Maybe because they are neighboring with Russia?

Is there a law against countries neighboring Russia from joining NATO? In fact, could it be that there are advantages to countries neighboring Russia in joining NATO?

It would be nice to live to see a day and age where Russia itself is a NATO member but I think Putin is leading Russia in the opposite direction. But that's Russia's choice, just like joining NATO is the Ukraine's and Georgia's choice.

Maybe because NATO could represent a threat to Russia's interests?

Maybe NATO is simply fair competition to what Russia has to offer these countries or ram down their throats, as is the case currently in Georgia.

[aaken]

Is there a law against countries neighboring Russia from joining NATO? In fact, could it be that there are advantages to countries neighboring Russia in joining NATO?

It would be nice to live to see a day and age where Russia itself is a NATO member but I think Putin is leading Russia in the opposite direction. But that's Russia's choice, just like joining NATO is the Ukraine's and Georgia's choice.

Of course there isn't any law but I can understand why Russia does not want them to join. Russia is not a member of NATO and I think the interests of Russia and NATO (or USA) are somewhat diverging.

Maybe NATO is simply fair competition to what Russia has to offer these countries or ram down their throats, as is the case currently in Georgia.

I'm not debating this point. Just arguing that, in Russia's place, I'd do the same. They are just acting according to their interests. As anybody else does.

[DanCanovas]

thats true, if canada joined what was the Warsaw pact, then I think the US might have had a few words to say, although the mood and politics of the time were different during those days

[XabbaRus]

You see ever since the collapse of the USSR the primary reason to be for NATO has ceased to exist, yet Russia is still made out to be the bad boy, after a while it responds by acting to type, happens with people happens with countries.

I wonder what would happen if Russia started building a military alliance with countries on America's border, eg Mexico et al? Would the US not bitch and moan.

Why does Russia care? Why does NATO need to expand? Just like I'll admit Russia is paranoid about NATO so the western countries are of Russia. I can't see Russia making a move against NATO or former republics same as NATO won't move against Russia. The thing is the paranoia remains on both sides.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

You see ever since the collapse of the USSR the primary reason to be for NATO has ceased to exist,

I agree but there are secondary reasons that still justify its existance and many of them have nothing to do with Russia anyway. To quote Wikipedia:

• The core of NATO is Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, which states
  • The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

The clincher is this:

• the provision was invoked for the first time in the treaty's history on 12 September 2001, in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States the day before.

Not against Russia but another enemy.

yet Russia is still made out to be the bad boy

Rather than being "made out", maybe it simply is. If the shoe fits.

after a while it responds by acting to type, happens with people happens with countries.

Once again, who is responding to whom?

I wonder what would happen if Russia started building a military alliance with countries on America's border, eg Mexico et al? Would the US not bitch and moan.

Sure it would.

Why does Russia care? Why does NATO need to expand? Just like I'll admit Russia is paranoid about NATO so the western countries are of Russia.

I don't think it has anything to do with Paranoia. Maybe you have to be paranoid to assume so. :hmm:

Russia has clearly taken directions that are both counter to western democratic ones and hint strongly at a reversal of direction in Russia's openness. Russia's entitled to do what they want but don't expect the rest of the world not to respond.

I can't see Russia making a move against NATO or former republics same as NATO won't move against Russia.

Personally, neither can I. As I mentioned, NATO has concerns other than Russia.

The thing is the paranoia remains on both sides.

I disagree.

[Skybird]

The more NATO moves into the southern east, the higher the likelihood that it will find itself being wrapped up in local wars and Islamic confrontations I do not see it prepared for, nor is western public. That Russia legitimately will be angry at such moves will not make the sitations any easier. Plus: these countries in that region - are far, far away from the northern Atlantic. How free to act NATO alrerady is we have seen during the Balkan wars. NATO is effectively a helping division nof wars that are fought by the US. Additonally, the US has no interest in an independent, capable european military or expedition force. The attempts of Europeans to create this, like the Euro brigade, may have been small enoiugh, nevertheless immediately triggered most robust pressure to put them under NATO command again . and NATO is dominated by the US without whom nothing goes - in good and in bad.

I am strictly against any further steps of NATO into the East. Else it sooner or later ends up guarding borders in the Kamchatka area. Some people want to take a bite that is bigger than what they can chew.

[The Avon Lady]

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