french and terroism

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

Oh I hear the chants alright, the difference is that unlike so many others I take the time to ask the question why and then explore it to find out. And, again, unlike others here I know the answer is not in the Koran, and that if that is as far as you're willing to look for the answer then you'll ignorant and prejudiced you will be, in fact, you will be little different from the fanatics on the other side since this is one of the fundamental tenets of fanaticism (and it is not a "Muslim" thing; it is a xenophobic, ignorant, and intolerant thing that doesn't depend on religion but can use religion, nationalism, or just about any other ideology or 'bond' as a means to an end).

You hear the word "Muslim" and you automatically associate it with the Jihadists on 9/11 or the woman in Burqa in Iran; I hear the word "Muslim" and I think of the Muslims who I work with who dress, act, and speak the same as you and me and who are not chanting "death to America" or "death to Israel"; rather, they are living the same lives as you and I with the same goals and the same dreams. In Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etc I imagine most of them have the same goals and dreams too, but none of the opportunities and some, or maybe many of them, are also taught, just as you have so obviously been taught, to fear and loathe "the enemy".

Sure some of them are chanting "death to Israel" and death to "America", and meanwhile Israel has recently killed several thousand Lebanese civilians in its "war on terror" while the US likely has the blood of 100,000+ Iraqis on its hands as well... and you wonder why? Yet of course you get a free pass because for them it is "terrorism" and they are "Muslim", while we are "Christian" or "Jewish" and can call it "collateral damage"... such nice neat categories for the same kind of ****.

And yeah 9/11 came before Iraq, and they've been chanting those slogans long before March/03, but our various bloody "interventions" in the region also goes way back to long before 9/11 as well. Recall Bin Laden used to be one of our guys and we armed, trained, and created the very mujahadeen that now goes by the name Al Qaeda... things are not as cut and dry as you'd like to believe they are, and the world isn't a place where there are only two kinds of people who are either "good" and "evil" or "Muslim" and "everyone else"; though its exactly that kind of thinking that underscores extremism of all forms no matter what its ideology, nationality, or rationalization. But keep thinking as you do, I know I'm not going to persuade you to think any differently as you have your nice neat little categories and they make things vert simple for you... just keep in mind that some of simply see people as people and we don't all lump people into neat little categories based solely on their religion, nationality, race, or political party.

[Edit] Have to leave for work soon, so I'll get to you later AL

[Immacolata]

Scandium, it doesn't really matter if it is found in the quran or it is found by those who interpret the quran in a certain way. The terrorists who use Allah as their justification could not have done so without the quran, right? The evil is done by the evil doer, not his knife. But take away his knife and he'd have to come up with something else. Or maybe not being inspired in the first place.

I am sure there are socio economic explanations up to both ears, but unlike national economy and traditional warfare, the acts of individuals are a bit harder to just ascribe to material factors. There is a will, too, a will to lash out and harm other people, instead of choosing not to lash out and harming other people.

[UglyMowgli]

We didn't need detergent, your white flgas are well pretected and we take care of them, you know we use them soo often, we can send you some if you want, we I see how you manage to our operations in lebanon, the next war you may have use of them.

I knwo the story of France and other country also, you always refer to french surrending during WW2 but there were a lot of other country who cease hostilities with the Nazi in 1940 but it s always to the french people you remind this, not the belgian, dutch, poles, ..... In situation where this only 2 choice continue combat with only more death or preservation of your troops what did you choose ? (it like the fall of the Phillipines and Bataan siege), you can blame the french but were the english troops, the alos flew at Dunkerk.
You can think what you want 60 years after with knowledge of all the events of the war but in 1940 the situation was should we fight until total annihilation or declare a cease fire and stop the war.

[Immacolata]

Yeah, a low blow. But don't worry. Even the israelites had to surrender to the roman legions once. The americans had their noses bloodied a few times by the british colonial forces. Lets not forget the torching of Washington. I wonder if there is many nations who can claim they had never been overwhelmed by enemy military might and forced to sign unfavourable peace treaties. Perhaps the Russians? Nay, not even they. They got kicked out of Afghanistan.

[TteFAboB]

The problem is not the mean jokes but that they're misguided.

The French are to blame for their own defeat in WW2. "The French" are the pacifist movements and every Frenchmen who participated in the peace rallies carrying white flags, all the way to 1938 when it should've been obvious peace would not come through wish. The politicians who backed these people and set as a policy to build the pathetic Maginot line, who believed in it. The designers of the French war machinery, Tanks designed with Trench warfare in mind. Guderian's books were available to any French general.

So the aim is at the symbol. Hitler is a symbol of how to use democracy to crush democracy. The French responsable for what I mention above are a symbol of how to walk towards your own slaughterhouse without realizing it, while having all the necessary conditions not to.

[August]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

We didn't need detergent, your white flgas are well pretected and we take care of them, you know we use them soo often, we can send you some if you want, we I see how you manage to our operations in lebanon, the next war you may have use of them.

I knwo the story of France and other country also, you always refer to french surrending during WW2 but there were a lot of other country who cease hostilities with the Nazi in 1940 but it s always to the french people you remind this, not the belgian, dutch, poles, ..... In situation where this only 2 choice continue combat with only more death or preservation of your troops what did you choose ? (it like the fall of the Phillipines and Bataan siege), you can blame the french but were the english troops, the alos flew at Dunkerk.
You can think what you want 60 years after with knowledge of all the events of the war but in 1940 the situation was should we fight until total annihilation or declare a cease fire and stop the war.

When I think of France it isn't the 1940 surrender that comes to mind, but rather The Maquis de Lafeyette and the aid your people gave us in defeating the British. I think of things like the Statue of Liberty, a gift from the French people, or how the French still cheered Lindberg when he landed at Orly although two of their fliers, including the legendary Nungesser, had just gone missing in their own cross atlantic attempt. I think of the thousands of shot down Allied airmen that were saved from the Germans at the expense of French lives. I think of the thousands of Allied soldiers who survived the D-day invasion because ordinary French civilians blew up bridges and ambushed German columns and installations (and paid the price in blood), sometimes even while allied bombs were destroying their homes and killing their families.

Forget "Freedom fries" and idiots who feel the need to badmouth the country who has been our longest standing Ally. They and their words do not represent the whole of the American people.

[fredbass]

I'm fully aware what France has done in the past, but remember, there is a difference between the past, present and future. The current generation of frenchies as well as many others don't seem to have the same level of appreciation and good will towards the U.S. as they did in the past. Of course I have no doubt that when they get in trouble, they'll come crawling back on their hands and knees begging us to help them.

[UglyMowgli]

At this time those who crawling toward you are Israelian (see the lastest declaration of Olmert).
I can give you a lot of examples were France help USA in the last years (from the assistance to your intelligence agency after the 9/11 to the evacuation of US citizen by french SF many time).

Lot of us dislike French because the non-intervention in Iraq, USA go to war but with false evidences about WMD, a lot of lies and without any plan for the after Saddam, and did you get a near civil war, an increase of terrorism cells, ... you could disagree with us but I don't care ; I prefer see French troops in Afganisthan fighting Talibans than being useless in Iraq.

[Yahoshua]

A fake but still funny.....the other 3 flags should be replaced with the U.N. flag though. More accurate that way.



Btw, I am:

25% USA
25% German
25% French
15% Finland

And the rest of me is Irish, English, and Scottish.

Quite a dilemma whenever I want to make a decision.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

At this time those who crawling toward you are Israelian (see the lastest declaration of Olmert).
I can give you a lot of examples were France help USA in the last years (from the assistance to your intelligence agency after the 9/11 to the evacuation of US citizen by french SF many time).

Lot of us dislike French because the non-intervention in Iraq, USA go to war but with false evidences about WMD, a lot of lies and without any plan for the after Saddam, and did you get a near civil war, an increase of terrorism cells, ... you could disagree with us but I don't care ; I prefer see French troops in Afganisthan fighting Talibans than being useless in Iraq.

France's intel is an international top adress for middle east affairs. Much of what the ameicans had done and planned during and after the field battle in 2003 would not have been possible without massive assistance from French intelligence. they have a special departement for Islamic terror that is unique in the West and that outclasses the competence of any other western intel organization in this field, including the American services. It had a close operation with the americans all the time - even at times when the anti-french rethoric and almost hysteric sentiments in the US spiked into the sky. Within Europe, the reputation of the French intelligence services is such that they are no friends of many scruples.

I question much of France' policies myself, and dislike the way they form and isolate their political "elites" who then rule in an alomst aristocratic manner. But the anti-French balking of Americans whenever the word "France" is said reminds me of a dog that has been conditioned to slobber even when only a picture of a bone is shown to it. such is not the behavior of a free and reasonable mind, but illustrates the actor to be a victim of a conditioned reflexes he has no control over. Same goes for the time and again repeated criticism that Germany is unthankful for the liberation from Hitler and Germans have no right to criticise american policies, for it is the country where the Nazis ruled in and so Germans better should shut up. Even today

Simply idiotic.

Like I do with American people and american policies and politicians, one should to with the French (and Germans) as well: make a difference between French people, and their politicans and policies. I wouldn't greet Chirac/Bush even if he holds his hand to me, but that does not mean I feel angry towards the French/Americans. They may make me wonder about some of their habits and differences. Okay, that is Europe: a collection of differences. that's what makes europe such an attractive target for holidays: diversity.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by August

When I think of France it isn't the 1940 surrender that comes to mind, but rather The Maquis de Lafeyette and the aid your people gave us in defeating the British. I think of things like the Statue of Liberty, a gift from the French people, or how the French still cheered Lindberg when he landed at Orly although two of their fliers, including the legendary Nungesser, had just gone missing in their own cross atlantic attempt. I think of the thousands of shot down Allied airmen that were saved from the Germans at the expense of French lives. I think of the thousands of Allied soldiers who survived the D-day invasion because ordinary French civilians blew up bridges and ambushed German columns and installations (and paid the price in blood), sometimes even while allied bombs were destroying their homes and killing their families.

Forget "Freedom fries" and idiots who feel the need to badmouth the country who has been our longest standing Ally. They and their words do not represent the whole of the American people.

Amen.

Before I traveled to Paris for the first time in 1994, several people told me to expect the French to treat me rudely. Ha! It was the exact opposite. I met and made several French friends during my three tips to France. Except for one harried waitress, French people treated my very well.

[joea]

August and Neal, real gentlemen you both for that.

[Oberon]

Damn straight, and I know that this'll sound strange coming from the mouth (or hands) of an Englishman, but whenever I think of the French, I think not of Napoleon, or the countless times our two countries have clashed...but I think of the people who hid our soldiers in the years between Dunkirk and D-day, of the people who sabotaged the Nazi military machine, and of those who gave their lives, when all hope seemed lost, when there was a steel helmet on each corner, they still went out, and helped us. The liberation of France was made a helluva lot easier by the help of the French people.

Viv' La France

[Perilscope]

^^^ Well said Oberon!

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

At this time those who crawling toward you are Israelian (see the lastest declaration of Olmert).
I can give you a lot of examples were France help USA in the last years (from the assistance to your intelligence agency after the 9/11 to the evacuation of US citizen by french SF many time).

Lot of us dislike French because the non-intervention in Iraq, USA go to war but with false evidences about WMD, a lot of lies and without any plan for the after Saddam, and did you get a near civil war, an increase of terrorism cells, ... you could disagree with us but I don't care ; I prefer see French troops in Afganisthan fighting Talibans than being useless in Iraq.

Tell me about how you helped the US during the Libyan air strikes. Your government wouldn't allow our aircraft to refuel in your air space. To be fair however, we pulled into several southern French ports afterwards and most of the people there were very apologetic for their governments decision.