Some moral questions by a German... - Page 7

P_Funk · 08-19-06, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainmanUK

The nationality, politics, or any other difference between people is irrelevant. The men who served in the Ubootewaffe did so with just the same dedication, trepidation, and sometimes terror, as their british or American or otherwise counterparts. We were, or are, all "men of the sea" and thus have a mutual bond that surpasses any national or political boundaries.

Just MHO

cheers

Exactly mate. Precisely what I have tried to say though your words carry more gravity considering your history.

08-19-06, 05:34 PM

I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy.

That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

P_Funk · 08-19-06, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy.

That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

I LOVE YOU TOO MAN! *bursts into tears and buries face into Steve's chest*

John Channing · 08-19-06, 09:59 PM

Group Hug!

Jcc

catar M · 08-20-06, 08:39 AM

No problem here it's only PC game and they were only soldiers. They had to do their job as the fellows on opposite side. I was in a Army and you find that reason you fight or join is not much for Ideals or leaders as is for your mates. As you can see on my sig "NAK" or in German "DAK" is North Afrika Korp which was German unit and my + 60 others have no problem naming our gaming community after German unit

Eichenlaub · 08-21-06, 11:12 AM

Quote:

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?

I believe I read it in both "Cursed sea" by Cajus Bekker and "The Battle of the Atlantic" by Andrew Williams. Don't have the time to look up the pagenumbers, but I can reommend reading these books anyway. "Cursed sea" delves deeply into the personalities of Raeder and Dönitz and how their character traits impacted upon naval strategy. Their relations with Hitler are covered less deeply, but still mentioned.
These orders being refused isn't surprising though. Luftwaffe fighter ace Adolf Galland succesfully resisted Hermann Goering's order to fire on parachuting aircrew...

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

Eichenlaub · 08-21-06, 01:16 PM

Dear subsimmers,

I've not been able to respond in full to this thread for the past days, but I did read up occasionally. I feel that some of the statements here are a little too black or white.

Statements here concerning the honourability and fighting motives of the "average German soldier" were on the whole very forgiving. I think the subject is too difficult to generalize so easily. My position on the matter is somewhat different from many of you I suppose. My position is that in those days, there were too many types of people in the Reich, doing their things for all kinds of different reasons, to easily arrive at assumptions, one-liners or generalizations.

There were ardent nazi's, half-hearted nazi's and people who stepped in line just because they didn't know any better or were lacking in insight, or thought they were doing their country a favour, or were misled or even plain stupid. At the height of nazi-popularity, somewhere in 1938 (IIRC), the nazi's could count on support from about 38% of the nation. After that, Germany went on a collision course with the rest of the world at such a pace that the nazi's support base decreased. This means that in ordinary life, about 1 in 3 persons could be involved to some degree in nazism. That's a major issue, here's why: it is incredibly difficult to tell how involved a person was and consequently, how "right" or "wrong" a person or group was during the war.

Seeing as the nazi movement was designed by Hitler to appeal to broad population segments and was actually capable of transgressing intuitive contradictions (nationalists and socialists didn't share their coffee ladies & gentlemen, yet the party was named National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei), the movement achieved a following throughout every layer of the German people. From politicians to intellectuals to grocers to labourers.

From the previous two paragraphs we can deduce that this broadly layered movement must be reflected in the armed forces. There may have been sections within the armed forces that were slanted more towards or away from nazism, but generally the tenet holds true that "every unit had his nazi". Unfortunately I've lost the name of the historian I just quoted, but the truth of it must be evident. Furthermore, I feel that one nazi per unit could be a low estimate, depending on the unit size. To retain our submarine setting, I think that a typical crew of 48 would contain about 10-16 hands of nazi incliniation. And now we arrive at a problem we just encountered at the end of my third paragraph: the level of indoctrination, or how convinced were those nazis? The question cannot be answered by any of us, after all these years.

A new question pops up right after the previous assertion, and it is this: so these nazis are in a military unit, a submarine in our example, but to what extent would one really notice this? There were nazis who didn't impose their views, or didn't go about lecturing others - at least not during combat conditions. Then there were the hardcore chaps who went really far with their views; I need to remind very few of you of what happened to Oscar Kusch of U-154.

The war has been over for 61 years now, and a lot of distortion creeps in during such a lengthy period. People have a need to deal with their past and possibly guilt, which can lead to some recolouring of events. There is still a fog of war out there.

All of these problems lead me to the conclusion that generalizing is rather dangerous. Instead I opt to look at things as close as possible, at the individual if possible. It's a difficult approach. Keep looking for the truth - it's usually grey.

I'll write more when I can spare the time again.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

flyingdane · 08-21-06, 08:32 PM

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft.

stabiz · 08-21-06, 08:53 PM

08-21-06, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdane

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft.

They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.

Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis, vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.

By MENNEN

flyingdane · 08-21-06, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubSerpent

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdane

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft.

They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.

Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis,vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.

By MENNEN

Did the germans attack the british people In ww2 Or am i wrong hear. and if i am than why wear so many of us USA Forces People there To help........Huh?

flyingdane · 08-21-06, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubSerpent

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdane

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft.

They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.

Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis, vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.

By MENNEN

how would you know anyway??:hmm:

08-21-06, 10:54 PM

Lighten up! I was just making fun of the word "attacted". That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. It just sounds funny is all. I don't even care that what you meant to type was misspelled. I understood perfectly somehow of what you were saying. I just like the word "attacted". Like I said, it sounds like it should be an underarm deodorant.

I am not knocking your post here. I understand you still feel bitter about the Germans and what they did during WWII. No problem with that and I agree. The Nazi's during WWII were some bad dudes. But SHIII is just a game and is not real. It is an educational naval simulator IMHO. I've learned more about U-boats since playing this sim than I really wanted.

Just tone your language and offensive post down a bit though or you won't be here long.

Gizzmoe · 08-21-06, 11:17 PM

SubSerpent, please check your PM. And please stop making fun of peoples spelling. You did that in General Topics and now you do it here...

08-21-06, 11:32 PM

08-21-06, 01:16 PM	#97
Eichenlaub Electrician's Mate Join Date: May 2006 Location: Nijmegen Posts: 132 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Dear subsimmers, I've not been able to respond in full to this thread for the past days, but I did read up occasionally. I feel that some of the statements here are a little too black or white. Statements here concerning the honourability and fighting motives of the "average German soldier" were on the whole very forgiving. I think the subject is too difficult to generalize so easily. My position on the matter is somewhat different from many of you I suppose. My position is that in those days, there were too many types of people in the Reich, doing their things for all kinds of different reasons, to easily arrive at assumptions, one-liners or generalizations. There were ardent nazi's, half-hearted nazi's and people who stepped in line just because they didn't know any better or were lacking in insight, or thought they were doing their country a favour, or were misled or even plain stupid. At the height of nazi-popularity, somewhere in 1938 (IIRC), the nazi's could count on support from about 38% of the nation. After that, Germany went on a collision course with the rest of the world at such a pace that the nazi's support base decreased. This means that in ordinary life, about 1 in 3 persons could be involved to some degree in nazism. That's a major issue, here's why: it is incredibly difficult to tell how involved a person was and consequently, how "right" or "wrong" a person or group was during the war. Seeing as the nazi movement was designed by Hitler to appeal to broad population segments and was actually capable of transgressing intuitive contradictions (nationalists and socialists didn't share their coffee ladies & gentlemen, yet the party was named National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei), the movement achieved a following throughout every layer of the German people. From politicians to intellectuals to grocers to labourers. From the previous two paragraphs we can deduce that this broadly layered movement must be reflected in the armed forces. There may have been sections within the armed forces that were slanted more towards or away from nazism, but generally the tenet holds true that "every unit had his nazi". Unfortunately I've lost the name of the historian I just quoted, but the truth of it must be evident. Furthermore, I feel that one nazi per unit could be a low estimate, depending on the unit size. To retain our submarine setting, I think that a typical crew of 48 would contain about 10-16 hands of nazi incliniation. And now we arrive at a problem we just encountered at the end of my third paragraph: the level of indoctrination, or how convinced were those nazis? The question cannot be answered by any of us, after all these years. A new question pops up right after the previous assertion, and it is this: so these nazis are in a military unit, a submarine in our example, but to what extent would one really notice this? There were nazis who didn't impose their views, or didn't go about lecturing others - at least not during combat conditions. Then there were the hardcore chaps who went really far with their views; I need to remind very few of you of what happened to Oscar Kusch of U-154. The war has been over for 61 years now, and a lot of distortion creeps in during such a lengthy period. People have a need to deal with their past and possibly guilt, which can lead to some recolouring of events. There is still a fog of war out there. All of these problems lead me to the conclusion that generalizing is rather dangerous. Instead I opt to look at things as close as possible, at the individual if possible. It's a difficult approach. Keep looking for the truth - it's usually grey. I'll write more when I can spare the time again. Kind regards, Eichenlaub __________________ "Despite living in a country where soft-drugs, prostitution, gay-marriage and euthanasia are all legal, I've never felt any inclination towards any of them." When SHIV hits the scene, we should not fear the double D Geisha escort...we should welcome her...

08-21-06, 08:32 PM	#98
flyingdane Weps Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 355 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!! we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. __________________ It denos't mtater waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, it's olny iprmoatnt taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelms.Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

08-21-06, 08:53 PM	#99
stabiz Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 4,224 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	__________________

08-21-06, 11:32 PM	#105
SubSerpent Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	<Edit - Gizzmoe> Last edited by Gizzmoe; 08-21-06 at 11:35 PM.

08-19-06, 05:34 PM	#92
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy. That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

08-19-06, 09:59 PM	#94
John Channing Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 1998 Posts: 1,846 Downloads: 163 Uploads: 5	Group Hug! Jcc

08-20-06, 08:39 AM	#95
catar M Torpedoman Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Perth W.A Posts: 118 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	No problem here it's only PC game and they were only soldiers. They had to do their job as the fellows on opposite side. I was in a Army and you find that reason you fight or join is not much for Ideals or leaders as is for your mates. As you can see on my sig "NAK" or in German "DAK" is North Afrika Korp which was German unit and my + 60 others have no problem naming our gaming community after German unit

08-21-06, 10:54 PM	#103
SubSerpent Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Lighten up! I was just making fun of the word "attacted". That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. It just sounds funny is all. I don't even care that what you meant to type was misspelled. I understood perfectly somehow of what you were saying. I just like the word "attacted". Like I said, it sounds like it should be an underarm deodorant. I am not knocking your post here. I understand you still feel bitter about the Germans and what they did during WWII. No problem with that and I agree. The Nazi's during WWII were some bad dudes. But SHIII is just a game and is not real. It is an educational naval simulator IMHO. I've learned more about U-boats since playing this sim than I really wanted. Just tone your language and offensive post down a bit though or you won't be here long.

08-21-06, 11:17 PM	#104
Gizzmoe Silent Hunter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 3,668 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	SubSerpent, please check your PM. And please stop making fun of peoples spelling. You did that in General Topics and now you do it here...