Some moral questions by a German... - Page 4

irish1958 · 08-17-06, 08:40 PM

This is a very interesting multinational discussion. I am an American of Irish descent on both my mother's and my father's side. During the war I was confused at the dinner table with the discussions. Every one was very Anti-British and hoped they would be pounded, and yet the American Press and sentiment was Anti-German. How could both sides be bad? How could America fight on the side of the British after what they did to the Irish? What were the Germans doing to the Jews?
At church, we were told that was bad.
As a child I was so confused I just wanted to play baseball.
61 years is a long time, as is 85 years ago. I wasn't responsible for what happened then or for who did what to whom.
SHIII is a fantasy. I can be a kaleun and command a crew to attempt to serve my country. What is wrong with that?

Spaxspore · 08-17-06, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaxspore

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Now off to the aircraft

Tanks-

Field Guns-

I've snipped a reasoned comparison of some US & German weapons used in WWII.

The other overwhelming difference is that the US had an enormous industrial base making these weapons which entirely outside the theatre of war - no bombed factories, railways, roads.

The finest weapons are no use if you can't make them & deliver them if sufficient quantity.

exactly, thats what i hinted on concerning the tanks...

Burzum · 08-17-06, 08:59 PM

Hmmm...
Great question mate!

For me, playing the game (or sim, in this case) as a German is...well, the honour, amongst other things.
As I am from Croatia, and in that time, Germany and Croatia were on the same side; and my ancestors spoke german language and even I have some part of german blood, so I am proud to play as a german...

I don't want to sound like some bittered man that weeps because "we" lost the war, but I am merely enthusiatic for playing as such...
I was always fascinated by a lot of things from that period of time with germany and its army, as well as bittered for some other things that should not have been made by same.
But just as such, I also played a lot of games on the allied side too, like RTCWolfenstein.

I can understand if someone has some feelings and don't want to play the game if it touches painful period of time in history, regarding to them; I believe not many jewish people can easily play a game under swastika's banner.
But, this is virtual world and is mostly fun and pleasure to play some things we couldn't have done in those days for real.

kapitanfred · 08-17-06, 09:23 PM

I agree whole heartedly, It's just a game but I'm sure any sim that depics historic events were developed so that you as a user could re-enact what it was like to be in that situation there at that time and how you would feel if you were there in real life. SHIII is a prime example of re-enacting the life of a U-Boat captain. Ok, so it's the Axis side you're re-enacting but once SHIV is released, you're on the other side of the fence. Same deal. For a majority of members here in the subsim community are fortunate not to have been born in that era.

All thing aside, it all depends how seriously the game is taken.

My two cents, euros, bobs worth.

JScones · 08-17-06, 09:57 PM

This is a good thread!

I just focus on the game and the challenges it presents. I don't focus on the RL politics. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm wearing a Commonwealth, American, German, Japanese, Russian, etc, etc uniform (although I do feel uncomfortable playing the Vietnamese in the Vietnam Conflict as my Dad served there and it's a bit of a respect thing). In my mind I'm just doing what every soldier from every nation essentially did - protecting my backside and country.

But I do, where possible, play the Australians as there are so few games that cater for the Australian military forces. I do feel very proud when I see that blue and white roundel on my P-40 Kittyhawk when I'm playing IL-2.

But let's face it, those German uniforms look much more spiffy than the British or American ones. And then there's the marching music...

P_Funk · 08-18-06, 01:25 AM

I'm gonna throw my two bits in here. For me I don't view games such as this one as a glorification of the Nazi regime. First and foremost the fact remains that it is in fact a game. For me games are very much similar to movies; a means to impart unto those less knowing what an event or period was like, particularly in the case of war movies. Whether it is a mini-series about the plight of Easy company of the 101st Airborne or a crew of a U-boat it is about the experiences of the people involved. For me game sare the same as movies, they are a great way to get a new perspective on something which is a constant part of our culture.

A perfect example is the much acclaimed Brothers in Arms. This game sought to recreate the realism of war and focused on characters and the experiences of a single squad and how war pushed them psychologically past the extreme rather than focusing on a much dramatized "operational" experience which lacked all character development and believability. This game was actually endorsed by veterans associations and historical societies as being accurate and a testament to the memory of WW2.

I personally want to see a game in which you get to play as a german soldier. The perspective would be fascinating. For once they could actually have an FPS war game when you have to retreat. If you are going to make the argument that the soldiers of the Third Reich were responsible for supporting a regime which wrought unstoppable terror and destruction we ought to remember that we also, as the Allies, were responsible for some despicable acts as well. Recall the Fire Bombing of Dresden, the nuclear bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the force internment of many immigrants of an unfriendly ethnic origin, and of course the bombing of Nazi held territory which caused countless civilian deaths.

My perspective on war is that war itself is the true monster behind the so called "evil". War throws innocent young men into a situation in which they are compelled to do terrible things, and told to die for an abstract concept such as god, king, and country. Of course the SS caused much human devestation beyond that of the normal conventions of war but the vast majority of german soldiers in all arms of the military were as innocent in the cause of the conflict as anyone else. They had their democratic process subverted, were conscripted, and forced to fight for a regime which had come to power for a number of reasons many of which lead back to the allies themselves at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

So no I don't find experiencing the German side of WW2 disgusting. War is disgusting. Where should we stop? "Aushwitz the game" -- that's when we can go ape****. But the life and death of a young man of any nationality is a worthy subject for a movie, novel, or game. If I can see through the eyes of a german man my own age and see what his life was like I can better cut through the biased propoganda that comes from living under the regime of the victors. The better we understand history the better we can hope to prevent a replay of it, one not on our computer screens at home.

Steeltrap · 08-18-06, 02:15 AM

In answer to the original post, it's for me a case of this being largely a TECHNICAL question - how well does the German technology (U-boat and various systems) perform against the allies' technology (escorts and systems, aircraft etc)? So it's NOT personal. Politics does not enter into it. There were 'atrocities' committed on all sides (consider, for example, that the USA conducted unrestricted sub warfare against Japan from 7th Dec 1941 while Germany did not initially do so in the Atlantic, yet Doenitz was tried as a war criminal for doing something which the USA did, and did better.....). Also, WWII is an era where personal skill is seen as being more important to the results, as technology had not developed to the level of 'point and shoot' as it has today. Thus your own actions and choices are seen as being crucial to the result as THEY have as much (or more) to do with the result than the technology (hard to sneak up on an enemy with GSR, remote 'snooper' drones, AWACS etc....).

Immacolata · 08-18-06, 04:49 AM

I think its the hardware, big guns and big machines. And man's natural fascination with things violence and warfare.

To me, the thought of Germany winning wW2 and my role as kaleun on a virtual uboot in a simulation of the war that I didn't want Germany to win, is two completely different things. People that find that connection offensive is the same P.C. people who are mortified when little boys play soldiers, them killing each other symbolically and what not.

Now, with SHIV Ill most likely be torpedoing japanese tonnage with the same glee as I do it on allied tonnage in SH3.

Zero Niner · 08-18-06, 04:58 AM

Back to the original question.

I play SH3 (amongst others) simply becasue it's a good game about a topic that interests me. I disassociate the events and the politics of WW2 from the games I play that are based on that era; SH3 being one of them.

I play as Germans also in other games, for instance in COD multiplayer games I frequently play on the German side if I can. Why? Just for the fun of it.

In IL2, I frequently fly for the Luftwaffe. Why? Just for the fun of it.

In Steel Panthers, I play German campaigns. Why? Just for the fun of it.

I suppose the fact that the Germans had some technically superior equipment, or had equipment with a fearsome reputation on the battlefield, or that the Wermacht had a reputation for tactical superiority, has an influence as well.

But at the end of the day, it's just a game.

Lovro · 08-18-06, 06:41 AM

Another point I like about the WW2 is that is one of the last wars where it was all about the man not the machine. Yes there were tech diffrences but not nearly as big as now. AK47 vs. F117 with thermal sight, radar stealth and laser guided bombs is not fair to me. Today its all about diffrent sensors, IR beams, AT technology, radar, eletronic warfare... In WW2 a poor equipped soldier could still win with his skill. Today you can be the ultimate master of camuflage and marksmanship but on a IR sensor 3km away you'll still be a nice white blob ready to take out with helicopters automated cannon.
Or take air combat than and today.

Beery · 08-18-06, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenssen

To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

I actually stopped playing violent/war-based games for two years because of my pacifist views. I might have relented if SH3 had come out during that time though. Anyway, I realized that what attracted me was not the violence but the challenge. All games are inherently non-violent. No one gets killed or hurt, and some games - especially simulations like SH3 - can actually imbue the player with a reverence for history and a realization that war is not something to be celebrated but something to be ashamed of.

SkvyWvr · 08-18-06, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

This is a good thread!

I just focus on the game and the challenges it presents. I don't focus on the RL politics. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm wearing a Commonwealth, American, German, Japanese, Russian, etc, etc uniform (although I do feel uncomfortable playing the Vietnamese in the Vietnam Conflict as my Dad served there and it's a bit of a respect thing). In my mind I'm just doing what every soldier from every nation essentially did - protecting my backside and country.

But I do, where possible, play the Australians as there are so few games that cater for the Australian military forces. I do feel very proud when I see that blue and white roundel on my P-40 Kittyhawk when I'm playing IL-2.

But let's face it, those German uniforms look much more spiffy than the British or American ones. And then there's the marching music...

I agree. Most of those who fought did so with honor, therefore there should be no shame in playing any side. I like the the recent title these brave men and woman have been given in the States and I think you'll agree when I say it applies to all who served their country during that dark period. They are "The Greatest Generation".

Gizzmoe · 08-18-06, 09:06 AM

FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts, the thread derailed too much...

SkvyWvr · 08-18-06, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts.

Thank You!!

sordid · 08-18-06, 09:23 AM

Much better now.

OK, go on, folks - enlighten me!
I didn't hear that many interesting thoughts about a question of mine for quite a while.
Don't be discouraged by the crap one person posted here. I am still absolutely convinced that this place can carry a controversal discussion as long as certain borders aren't touched.

08-17-06, 08:40 PM	#46
irish1958 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 3,250 Downloads: 320 Uploads: 11	Playing a game This is a very interesting multinational discussion. I am an American of Irish descent on both my mother's and my father's side. During the war I was confused at the dinner table with the discussions. Every one was very Anti-British and hoped they would be pounded, and yet the American Press and sentiment was Anti-German. How could both sides be bad? How could America fight on the side of the British after what they did to the Irish? What were the Germans doing to the Jews? At church, we were told that was bad. As a child I was so confused I just wanted to play baseball. 61 years is a long time, as is 85 years ago. I wasn't responsible for what happened then or for who did what to whom. SHIII is a fantasy. I can be a kaleun and command a crew to attempt to serve my country. What is wrong with that? __________________ Irish1958

08-17-06, 08:59 PM	#48
Burzum Mate Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Croatia Posts: 54 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Hmmm... Great question mate! For me, playing the game (or sim, in this case) as a German is...well, the honour, amongst other things. As I am from Croatia, and in that time, Germany and Croatia were on the same side; and my ancestors spoke german language and even I have some part of german blood, so I am proud to play as a german... I don't want to sound like some bittered man that weeps because "we" lost the war, but I am merely enthusiatic for playing as such... I was always fascinated by a lot of things from that period of time with germany and its army, as well as bittered for some other things that should not have been made by same. But just as such, I also played a lot of games on the allied side too, like RTCWolfenstein. I can understand if someone has some feelings and don't want to play the game if it touches painful period of time in history, regarding to them; I believe not many jewish people can easily play a game under swastika's banner. But, this is virtual world and is mostly fun and pleasure to play some things we couldn't have done in those days for real. __________________

08-18-06, 01:25 AM	#51
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	I'm gonna throw my two bits in here. For me I don't view games such as this one as a glorification of the Nazi regime. First and foremost the fact remains that it is in fact a game. For me games are very much similar to movies; a means to impart unto those less knowing what an event or period was like, particularly in the case of war movies. Whether it is a mini-series about the plight of Easy company of the 101st Airborne or a crew of a U-boat it is about the experiences of the people involved. For me game sare the same as movies, they are a great way to get a new perspective on something which is a constant part of our culture. A perfect example is the much acclaimed Brothers in Arms. This game sought to recreate the realism of war and focused on characters and the experiences of a single squad and how war pushed them psychologically past the extreme rather than focusing on a much dramatized "operational" experience which lacked all character development and believability. This game was actually endorsed by veterans associations and historical societies as being accurate and a testament to the memory of WW2. I personally want to see a game in which you get to play as a german soldier. The perspective would be fascinating. For once they could actually have an FPS war game when you have to retreat. If you are going to make the argument that the soldiers of the Third Reich were responsible for supporting a regime which wrought unstoppable terror and destruction we ought to remember that we also, as the Allies, were responsible for some despicable acts as well. Recall the Fire Bombing of Dresden, the nuclear bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the force internment of many immigrants of an unfriendly ethnic origin, and of course the bombing of Nazi held territory which caused countless civilian deaths. My perspective on war is that war itself is the true monster behind the so called "evil". War throws innocent young men into a situation in which they are compelled to do terrible things, and told to die for an abstract concept such as god, king, and country. Of course the SS caused much human devestation beyond that of the normal conventions of war but the vast majority of german soldiers in all arms of the military were as innocent in the cause of the conflict as anyone else. They had their democratic process subverted, were conscripted, and forced to fight for a regime which had come to power for a number of reasons many of which lead back to the allies themselves at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. So no I don't find experiencing the German side of WW2 disgusting. War is disgusting. Where should we stop? "Aushwitz the game" -- that's when we can go ape***. But the life and death of a young man of any nationality is a worthy subject for a movie, novel, or game. If I can see through the eyes of a german man my own age and see what his life was like I can better cut through the biased propoganda that comes from living under the regime of the victors. The better we understand history the better we can hope to prevent a replay of it, one not on our computer screens at home. __________________ Last edited by P_Funk; 08-18-06 at 01:28 AM.*

08-18-06, 02:15 AM	#52
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	In answer to the original post, it's for me a case of this being largely a TECHNICAL question - how well does the German technology (U-boat and various systems) perform against the allies' technology (escorts and systems, aircraft etc)? So it's NOT personal. Politics does not enter into it. There were 'atrocities' committed on all sides (consider, for example, that the USA conducted unrestricted sub warfare against Japan from 7th Dec 1941 while Germany did not initially do so in the Atlantic, yet Doenitz was tried as a war criminal for doing something which the USA did, and did better.....). Also, WWII is an era where personal skill is seen as being more important to the results, as technology had not developed to the level of 'point and shoot' as it has today. Thus your own actions and choices are seen as being crucial to the result as THEY have as much (or more) to do with the result than the technology (hard to sneak up on an enemy with GSR, remote 'snooper' drones, AWACS etc....). Last edited by Gizzmoe; 08-18-06 at 09:02 AM.

08-18-06, 09:06 AM	#58
Gizzmoe Silent Hunter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 3,668 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts, the thread derailed too much... Last edited by Gizzmoe; 08-18-06 at 09:10 AM.

08-17-06, 09:23 PM	#49
kapitanfred Planesman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: South Australia Posts: 191 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	I agree whole heartedly, It's just a game but I'm sure any sim that depics historic events were developed so that you as a user could re-enact what it was like to be in that situation there at that time and how you would feel if you were there in real life. SHIII is a prime example of re-enacting the life of a U-Boat captain. Ok, so it's the Axis side you're re-enacting but once SHIV is released, you're on the other side of the fence. Same deal. For a majority of members here in the subsim community are fortunate not to have been born in that era. All thing aside, it all depends how seriously the game is taken. My two cents, euros, bobs worth.

08-17-06, 09:57 PM	#50
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	This is a good thread! I just focus on the game and the challenges it presents. I don't focus on the RL politics. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm wearing a Commonwealth, American, German, Japanese, Russian, etc, etc uniform (although I do feel uncomfortable playing the Vietnamese in the Vietnam Conflict as my Dad served there and it's a bit of a respect thing). In my mind I'm just doing what every soldier from every nation essentially did - protecting my backside and country. But I do, where possible, play the Australians as there are so few games that cater for the Australian military forces. I do feel very proud when I see that blue and white roundel on my P-40 Kittyhawk when I'm playing IL-2. But let's face it, those German uniforms look much more spiffy than the British or American ones. And then there's the marching music...

08-18-06, 04:49 AM	#53
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I think its the hardware, big guns and big machines. And man's natural fascination with things violence and warfare. To me, the thought of Germany winning wW2 and my role as kaleun on a virtual uboot in a simulation of the war that I didn't want Germany to win, is two completely different things. People that find that connection offensive is the same P.C. people who are mortified when little boys play soldiers, them killing each other symbolically and what not. Now, with SHIV Ill most likely be torpedoing japanese tonnage with the same glee as I do it on allied tonnage in SH3.

08-18-06, 04:58 AM	#54
Zero Niner Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,033 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	Back to the original question. I play SH3 (amongst others) simply becasue it's a good game about a topic that interests me. I disassociate the events and the politics of WW2 from the games I play that are based on that era; SH3 being one of them. I play as Germans also in other games, for instance in COD multiplayer games I frequently play on the German side if I can. Why? Just for the fun of it. In IL2, I frequently fly for the Luftwaffe. Why? Just for the fun of it. In Steel Panthers, I play German campaigns. Why? Just for the fun of it. I suppose the fact that the Germans had some technically superior equipment, or had equipment with a fearsome reputation on the battlefield, or that the Wermacht had a reputation for tactical superiority, has an influence as well. But at the end of the day, it's just a game.

08-18-06, 06:41 AM	#55
Lovro Sailor man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Slovenia Posts: 46 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Another point I like about the WW2 is that is one of the last wars where it was all about the man not the machine. Yes there were tech diffrences but not nearly as big as now. AK47 vs. F117 with thermal sight, radar stealth and laser guided bombs is not fair to me. Today its all about diffrent sensors, IR beams, AT technology, radar, eletronic warfare... In WW2 a poor equipped soldier could still win with his skill. Today you can be the ultimate master of camuflage and marksmanship but on a IR sensor 3km away you'll still be a nice white blob ready to take out with helicopters automated cannon. Or take air combat than and today.

08-18-06, 09:23 AM	#60
sordid Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 14 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Much better now. OK, go on, folks - enlighten me! I didn't hear that many interesting thoughts about a question of mine for quite a while. Don't be discouraged by the crap one person posted here. I am still absolutely convinced that this place can carry a controversal discussion as long as certain borders aren't touched.