Astute vs Virginia

[LoBlo]

Which is the better sub and why?

Discuss.

[goldorak]

What are the known specs for the virginia and astute classes ?
No vote without clear facts.

[XabbaRus]

Although I voted astute I would have to say at the moment Virginia class.

Why? Well 2 or 3 of them exists. Astute hasn't even been finished yet.

[UglyMowgli]

No not an another comaprison, base on what?
A computer will answer : 'ERROR : Not enough data to proceed, BIP, BIP.'

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by goldorak

What are the known specs for the Virginia and Astute classes?

Aww.. thats lazy :p

Oh well, here's *one* source of info (even though there are no real "facts" in sub specs.)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-774-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ope/astute.htm

In a nutshell....
The cost of the two subs is about equal. Both subs were designed to be low-cost but each had significant cost overruns.
The VA is estimated at 7800 tons crew of 113, the Astute at 6800 tons crew of 100-108.
VA is built by Electric Boat company, Newport News, Lockheed, and Raytheon. Astute is built by BAE, but halfway through the design phase, BAE needed to bring in Electric Boat Company to solve some of its problems. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2930237.stm
Both subs probably have comparable sensors, and diving depths.
The VA has 4 horizontal tubes and 12 VLS tubes; total weapons capacity 38. The Astute carries 6 horizontal tubes with no VLS system; total weapons capcity 36 weapons
The Astute speed is estimated at 32 knots. The VA speed is unknown. Its thought to be somewhere between the LA and the SW.

That's about all I can find atm. I voted for the VA. They cost the same, but Electric Boat Company seems to know what its doing more than BAE. I have some theories about they're quieting levels as well.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

No not an another comaprison, base on what?
A computer will answer : 'ERROR : Not enough data to proceed, BIP, BIP.'

Based off what we do know of course. And any other reasoning that the chooser expresses in their post for an interesting and enlightening discussion

[goldorak]

Nothing interesting out there , the same boats, same weapons, same hull design, same everything *yawn*.
I want something new in submarine design/ weapons.
Why is it that american and english subs only carry "torpedos". ? :rotfl:
What about more "exotic"weapons : skvals, anti-ship missiles, subroc etc....

Enough rant, I vote for the Astute class, only because its a european sub everything else being equal.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Although I voted astute I would have to say at the moment Virginia class.

Why? Well 2 or 3 of them exists. Astute hasn't even been finished yet.

You have to explain why you would choose Astute That the fun of the discussion.

[Linton]

Despite not wanting to upset the British community on here ,anything that BAE is involved in and is already late and over budget is going to be inferior.In the modern world the RN should be buying a fleet of aip SSKs

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Linton

Despite not wanting to upset the British community on here ,anything that BAE is involved in and is already late and over budget is going to be inferior.In the modern world the RN should be buying a fleet of aip SSKs

As far as I understand its not only the americans that are "fixed" on nuclear submarines.
English and French have decided for an all out nuclear submarine force.
How dumb is that ?
Especially for the 2 european countries ?
Did Rickover have relatives in France and England btw. ? :rotfl::rotfl:

[Linton]

Rickover came from an eastern european jewish family.I think that despite being a very good engineer his dogmatic approach that every ssn officer should be an engineer first and also personally selected by him took some of the fghting spirit away from the US submarine force in the early nuclear years

[LoBlo]

But really, what can anyone do with a SSK, besides park it off your own coast and let it sit? How useful is that? *shrug*

What's the UK going to do. Send an SSK into the Mediterranean, across the Suez, around Saudi Arabia, and into the Persian Gulf at a whopping 8 knots SOA? At that speed it should get there by .... oh lets say Christmas (j/k)

[goldorak]

Most countries don't need to project their forces all over the world.
Well if history is a thing to reckon then having open sea lanes is fundamental.
What happens when a country such as china/iran/india etc... uses its fleet of SSK for interdiction of trade routes ?
What good are 688I, or the entire american surface fleet in the strait of ormuz ?
Some ssk in that zone could prove deadly adversaries against the us navy.
The US has virtually 0 experience in ssk design and how to counter them (and things have changed a LOT since the 1950's).
The end of the cold war, has shifted the center of naval warfare from blue water operations to coastal/littoral operations.
As an aside Russia is developping a wireguided supercavitating torpedo as well as Germany.
This could change radically the nature of underwater combat.
The US are still focused on normal torpedo technology.
Nuclear hunter killer submarines (except boomers) , are like the F-14.
They were born in a era where cost was irrelevant with respect to the mission they had to accomplish.
Same thing with the F-14, it was the best of the best bar none.
End of cold war, desmise of the F-14.
The US navy should not desmise its nuclear submarine force, but on the other hand should develop ssk submarines for the new type of post cold war warfare.

And when you ask what good is an ssk ?
Look at the damage SSKs did to the English fleet during the Falkland's war.

[Driftwood]

I believe that the USN has absolutely recognized the threat posed by the new breed of SSK's and are taking steps to counter that threat. It's also recognized that the focus is shifting toward brown water operations and the VA class has many new features that enhance it's abilities in these areas. And please don't kid yourselves folks when it comes to Nukes vs. SSKs. The simple fact is that the US, USSR, UK and France take the nuke route because they can. The modern SSK is a result of governments that can't afford nukes but wanted a modern submarine force that can hold it's own in coastal opns.

[Kapitan]

Astutes have 6 torpedo tubes i believe the VA's have only for so the british subs have 20% more firing capibility than the americans right away, both are similar, but its not who is better or who has the best sub, its who has the best trained crew, and at this moment on even the united states navy flatly bows down to the british on that score period end of.

The USN regularly sends thier naval officers to train with us and do our "perisher" as do the indians and even had some germans too.