Graf Zeppelin wreck found!

[johan_d]

The victor tells what is bad.. i guess we were all speaking different if Hitler won the war..

Its all in the eyes of the beholder. Even those who believed in Hitler cant be wrong, history had a bunch of loved dictators.. Ceasar, Napoleon, and so on. People believed in them, so they cant be 'wrong'.

Like now, the US soldiers in Iraq fight for their believes, time will tell if they were correct.

[stabiz]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.

That was a bit disapointing coming from an admin.

[RedHammer]

But this is just weird, u all knew what happened to those germans who even thought about not fighting for the nazis, off to military jail and shot, do u know how many men and women were killed at a certain military prison in germany, in a single year? 134000! in ww1, of a total of 7000 desertors from the german forces, only 6-7 got away! If they didnt fight, they would die! Owh and by the way, my grandfather fought at the russian front for the nazis, but when looking at the Cold War and all that, and looking at the after effects, forexample, that might not be a dumb idea? If I meant that seriously I would be banned and kicked from this forum! But for all I know, if the germans hadnt tryed to invade the russians, the Russians would have been fresh enough to invade my country as well(just as the germans invaded my country because they were on their own height), just look at what happened to the Finnish cuz they didn`t wanna give up a few forrests and lakes.. and what did Russia want with those? Russia represent 1/4th of Europe, why would they want a few forrests and lakes?.. Too bad it had to cost 275000 lives to not even find out..
As a great writer once put it; in one of his books: Were doin Stalin a big fat favour actually.. Evrybody kicks our asses cuz of Hitler`s camps, while evrybody thinks Stalin doesnt have a camp.."

Evrybody knows that their own country punish those who dont meet up at military, Give the Germans a good reason to die trying not to serve their country no matter what, just as israelic men and women do right now..(A conflict of which reminds me suspiciously much about the Finnish-Russian Winter War..).

All im asking is keep in mind the average German`s situation, just as you would keep in mind an Average Joe`s or Tommy`s situation, and consequences, if he/her didn`t pick up the rifle and uniform!

Sorry if I offended any people in this post, but it was the only way of putting it!


Salute

RedHammer

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by RAM

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it. I have nothing against German war vets, but I also don't believe in whitewashing the past. If someone says something about a "Nazi U-boat" or a "Nazi soldier", I understand what he means.

No offense. I can understand why German sons and grandsons of German military may feel differently. I'm not trying to change your opinion

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by RAM

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.


Just my .02$$.

Well put RAM. I agree totally.

[harzfeld]

Originally Posted by RedHammer

But this is just weird, u all knew what happened to those germans who even thought about not fighting for the nazis, off to military jail and shot, do u know how many men and women were killed at a certain military prison in germany, in a single year? 134000! in ww1, of a total of 7000 desertors from the german forces, only 6-7 got away! If they didnt fight, they would die! Owh and by the way, my grandfather fought at the russian front for the nazis, but when looking at the Cold War and all that, and looking at the after effects, forexample, that might not be a dumb idea? If I meant that seriously I would be banned and kicked from this forum! But for all I know, if the germans hadnt tryed to invade the russians, the Russians would have been fresh enough to invade my country as well(just as the germans invaded my country because they were on their own height), just look at what happened to the Finnish cuz they didn`t wanna give up a few forrests and lakes.. and what did Russia want with those? Russia represent 1/4th of Europe, why would they want a few forrests and lakes?.. Too bad it had to cost 275000 lives to not even find out..
As a great writer once put it; in one of his books: Were doin Stalin a big fat favour actually.. Evrybody kicks our asses cuz of Hitler`s camps, while evrybody thinks Stalin doesnt have a camp.."

Evrybody knows that their own country punish those who dont meet up at military, Give the Germans a good reason to die trying not to serve their country no matter what, just as israelic men and women do right now..(A conflict of which reminds me suspiciously much about the Finnish-Russian Winter War..).

All im asking is keep in mind the average German`s situation, just as you would keep in mind an Average Joe`s or Tommy`s situation, and consequences, if he/her didn`t pick up the rifle and uniform!

Sorry if I offended any people in this post, but it was the only way of putting it!


Salute

RedHammer

I wonder if Russia and Germany could had become ally after both of them invaded Poland? I was puzzled since Stalin was as bad as Hilter, or Hilter was as bad as Stalin either way.. What about if Russia didn't get invaded by Nazi, would Russia really still invade Germany anyway and why? I thought it would be for Russia's benefits by being ally with Axis when Russia was already against the Western states then during cold war?

Russia and Germany had a long-standing feud going; it was really not a question of if Germany invaded, but rather, when. Kind of like right after the American independence war; it was not a question of if the Americans abnd the British would fight again, but rather when (actually came about in the war of 1812).

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it.

Neal I really don't follow you here, but it might be the language barrier.

Let me see, you think (as I do) that US soldiers being deployed overseas today doesn't mean that they are republicans, and that they are US soldiers, not republican soldiers. So far ,so good.

But, while that holds true for US soldiers it doesn't apply to WW2 german soldiers?. A German soldier was a NAZI soldier, not a German soldier?.


Have to disagree with you here. Some german soldiers deployed during WW2 were Nazis, but the average soldier was a GERMAN soldier, not a Nazi one.



Another thing I'd like to mention:

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.

I guess that US Navy men who were drowning japanese sailors in the pacific and SRA zone were better because they let them drown in "hot" waters?...(we won't mention sharks here).

U-boat sailors were not more dis-honourable for sinking merchant ships in the atlantic than what US sailors doing the same in the Far East could be, neal. They all played the same game. It's called "war" and it's hell, and you can hardly blame those who played a part on it...but yet if you do, place that blame on ALL those who did similar things, not only on a minority, and just because they lost the war.

Please, make up your mind, either all submarine sailors of WW2 which conducted anti-merchant operations were dis-honourable, or they all were honourable. But you can't have the "Kriegsmarine ones weren't, but US ones were" when both navy's submarine forces conducted pretty similar submarine offensives on other merchant navies during the war.

In short, no two-standards ,please, Neal...

[RAM]

One little thing I'd like to add. I'm not german and have no german relatives or ascendancy. I'm Spanish.

It's just that seen from the "outside", I think is unfair to qualify a collective of soldiers because of the ideology of the leadership of the nation they belonged to.

I also think it's unfair to place such a blame on a collective were so many innocent people were placed, people who just fought for their country and lifes not for hitler.

There is a certain deal of blame to put on the germans and wehrmacht for what happened during WW2 and in the years prior to it, I agree with that. But not enough to go as far as calling every german soldier a "nazi" soldier.

That's going too far, at least from my point of view (that I like to think it's as objective, unbiased and neutral as you can get).

[Dowly]

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

If a country would be run by a republican, would all the ships be 'republic destroyer', 'republic carrier' etc.?

Originally Posted by Dowly

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

If a country would be run by a republican, would all the ships be 'republic destroyer', 'republic carrier' etc.?

Good Point Dowly!

[U-104]

Can we please get back to the Graf Zeppelin wreck being found?

[STEED]

Originally Posted by U-104

Can we please get back to the Graf Zeppelin wreck being found?

Here, here.

[slow_n_ez]

I saw this news the other day at my isp's home page.... its in english for those who don't want to try to read the German site :

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php...&cps=0&lang=en

It seems the Russians used it for target practice after the war ...... .. clicking on thepic gives a better view of it

[Drebbel]

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

But they where fighting for the NAZI cause, just as nowadays US soldier is fighting for Democracy and Kapitalism, and therefore in my views a NAZI soldier. IMHO too often the word NAZI is being used to point at others in order to seperate oneselves from what "the others" did. In my opinion we are always responsible for what we do in live and who we support, even a soldier. That does not mean we all have the power to change it but we are always responsible, and therefore accountable, for our actions. Pointing at others and saying "they are NAZIs and I was not" does not mean much if you then turn around, pick up a rifle and continue fighting for the NAZI cause.

Only by always holding people accountable for what they do or who they support we have a chance of preventing disasters as WWII.