Das Boot

Right, here's my attempt at answering three threads in one post...so no more complaining.

Sailor Steve:

What bugged me about Crimson Tide was the relationships between the officers. On a ship the Captain is the next thing to God: no one questions his decisions or his authority. That said, a good captain know and trusts his executive officer, and the fights they had were nothing like anything that would happen in the U.S. Navy. The plot hinges on the fact that the screenwriter knows nothing of naval protocol or procedures.

If the Capatin is "God" then the XO would be "Deputy-God" right? Listen, if the Captain was supposed to run a sub with God-like status, they wouldn't put an XO there who is supposed to CONCUR with him.
No one questions the Captain's authority? What about if the Captain orders every submariner smear grease-oil on their feet and slide the length of the boat whilst making seal noises? weeeeeee Would nobody question him then...you know, say he developed a psychosis by banging his head on the Playboy-stash cupboard? In other words, what would happen if the Captain attempted to launch 200 nukes over Russia without proper, unequivocal proof such a launch was authorised.

That's what Crimson Tide was about. It was also made to highlight that before 1995, boomer Captains had the ability to launch nukes independently of any outside manipulation/input. Scary thought!

Perseus:

No way. I mean, for starters: the moment the sub loses ULF comms, just as the AEM is coming in. The screens the radio operator is watching start to flash and what not. HILARIOUS. If there's no comms anymore, a message is (at best) stopped in mid-sentence. Your screens do not start flashing, nor do they try to imitate a graphic hoola-hoop. And then there's a load of other rubbish - AAARGH, I'm not even going into that. I'm still embarrassed about the 10 euro I spent to see that *cough* movie *cough* in the cinema.

Realistic movies - erm, try "Hostile Waters" or hell, "Hunt for Red October". Sure, there's some silly Hollywood-stuff in the latter but about 95% is pretty darn accurate.

Trivial details. It's a fact of movie making that they always "pretty up" consoles, HUDs etc for the audience. Let's face it, military electronic stuff is boring...people see a movie to be entertained. So it's pretty unfair of you to say it's unrealistic just because of this. And you're forgetting something...REAL LIFE INSTRUMENTS ARE FRIGGING CLASSIFIED!!!

And you can't say Hunt For Red October, the movie, is more realistic then Crimson Tide.:rotfl: Do you really think the interior of a sub looks like that? Resembles more Star Trek then a Typhoon based fictional sub. Which reminds me, you do realise the Red October wasn't a real sub, yes? Caterpillar tehehe...

Ula Jolly:

Sean Connery is just dead flat sexy.

I hope you're a girl. :hmm:

Ok, now one back at ya. If Das Boot is realistic and representative/typical of German U-Boat life in the 1940's. Then insubordination must not have existed as a word back then.

Also: the worst line in movie history, ever:

"They are children taken away from their mamas breasts." (said seriously by the manic depressive captain). :rotfl:

Originally Posted by Kurushio

No one questions the Captain's authority? What about if the Captain orders every submariner smear grease-oil on their feet and slide the length of the boat whilst making seal noises?

Watch The Caine Mutiny. You'll see just how hard it is to question the captain's authority, even one who's gone off his nut.

I agree Das Boot has problems, especially since many of the procedures are very much different from those of the U.S. Navy. Also, I'd like to think that the men would be a little more professional in their conduct during extreme situations. On the other hand, Crimson Tide may have had a good story, but it just wasn't NAVY.

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Watch The Caine Mutiny. You'll see just how hard it is to question the captain's authority, even one who's gone off his nut.

But as Admiral Jack Fisher said after the Battle of Dogger Bank, "Like Nelson at Copenhagan and St. Vincent! In war the first principle is to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!"

The funny thing is that he was the First Sea Lord at the time, the head of the entire British navy, and he was telling them to disobey orders! :rotfl:

But he was referring to captains taking their own initiative, not subordinates taking over the ship.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Watch The Caine Mutiny. You'll see just how hard it is to question the captain's authority, even one who's gone off his nut.

I agree Das Boot has problems, especially since many of the procedures are very much different from those of the U.S. Navy. Also, I'd like to think that the men would be a little more professional in their conduct during extreme situations. On the other hand, Crimson Tide may have had a good story, but it just wasn't NAVY.

I believe you are incorrect. I also believe there is written doctrine outlining when and how it is permissible for the XO to take command of the boat if something (i.e. physical or mental illness) should happen to the Captain. Just like the Captain of a sub does not have God-like status, neither does the president of the US. He may be removed and replaced by the Vice President if he is deemed unfit to continue running the country. And if they can do that to the what is essentially the boss of the sub Captain...they can certainly do it to him.

You have to use common sense. If you were on a boat and the Captain flipped and ordered an attack on an innocent country, they would not court martial you (successfully) if you even had to use deadly force to stop him doing so...it's just plain old common sense. We're humans...not machines.

And that's why Crimson Tide is so good. Remember the bit at the end? They court martial Denzel and the outcome? They said he was wrong to override the Captain's orders, but he got promoted and the Captain got forcefully retired. In other words...he was right.

So tell me now. Why isn't it "Navy"? Because I've heard from bubbleheads who've said the procedures are very accurate.

Originally Posted by Kurushio

I believe you are incorrect. I also believe there is written doctrine outlining when and how it is permissible for the XO to take command of the boat if something (i.e. physical or mental illness) should happen to the Captain. Just like the Captain of a sub does not have God-like status, neither does the president of the US. He may be removed and replaced by the Vice President if he is deemed unfit to continue running the country. And if they can do that to the what is essentially the boss of the sub Captain...they can certainly do it to him.

But the Vice-President can't kick out the President and take over-it has to be done through an act of Congress.

You have to use common sense. If you were on a boat and the Captain flipped and ordered an attack on an innocent country, they would not court martial you (successfully) if you even had to use deadly force to stop him doing so...it's just plain old common sense. We're humans...not machines.

Common sense has nothing to do with the navy-procedure does. If a ship runs aground, the Captain's career is over. Period. If a warship is involved in a collision, the Captain's career is over. He'll be court-martialled, and may be found innocent, but he'll never command a ship again.

And that's why Crimson Tide is so good. Remember the bit at the end? They court martial Denzel and the outcome? They said he was wrong to override the Captain's orders, but he got promoted and the Captain got forcefully retired. In other words...he was right.

As I said, that's because the screenwriter didn't know what he was talking about. The events as described could have happened that way, but they had to force the plot to come out the way they wanted.

(from an earlier post)If the Capatin is "God" then the XO would be "Deputy-God" right?

Wrong. There's the captain, and there's everybody else. He has absolute power, it's 'his' ship and everybody else works for him. That said, he has to answer for any decision he makes, and once he's ashore he's subject higher powers.

So tell me now. Why isn't it "Navy"? Because I've heard from bubbleheads who've said the procedures are very accurate.

I was in the navy, and to a sailor some movies feel right, and others don't. That one didn't, at least to me. As you say, some bubbleheads will disagree with me. They were on subs, I wasn't. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But the Vice-President can't kick out the President and take over-it has to be done through an act of Congress.

Nope, the 25th amendment section 4 allows the Vice President to take over from the President with just a majority vote from the cabinet only...not Congress. It was actually on 24 (second series) and is actually true.

Common sense has nothing to do with the navy-procedure does. If a ship runs aground, the Captain's career is over. Period. If a warship is involved in a collision, the Captain's career is over. He'll be court-martialled, and may be found innocent, but he'll never command a ship again.

What has this got to do with an XO taking command ala Crimson Tide? :hmm:

Wrong. There's the captain, and there's everybody else. He has absolute power, it's 'his' ship and everybody else works for him. That said, he has to answer for any decision he makes, and once he's ashore he's subject higher powers.

No, you are wrong. What if the Captain wants to start a nuclear war, like in this case? Would you just let him and sort it out when you get ashor....wait a minute....tnothing will be left ashore. OF COURSE NOT!. If the Captain was about to kill off humanity, you could put a bullet in his head there and then, go to bed, wake up and get a medal. Nothing is written in stone...you're thinking about Captain Bligh on the Bounty. It's 2006 not 1506.

I was in the navy, and to a sailor some movies feel right, and others don't. That one didn't, at least to me. As you say, some bubbleheads will disagree with me. They were on subs, I wasn't. Fair enough.

The procedures used were correct as was the nuke arming sequence...I don't understand what you find so innacurate. Of course some of it is over-emphasised to make it more dramatic...but all in all it was done very well. For God's sake, compare it to Top Gun...will ya? Now that movie didn't even bother with realism, let alone attempt it.

[zombiewolf]

The best sub movie EVER was "Yellow Submarine"
Those Blue Meanies and Apple Bonkers were scary!

[Saintaw]

Crimson tide: isn't that the movie where they were using "PASSIVE" sonar to detect the akula... their PASSIVE sonar, being a circular display going PING PING and showing a red glowing submarine icon? Sure, I've seen it.

Allow me to laugh at that one again...

[Ula Jolly]

Originally Posted by Saintaw

Crimson tide: isn't that the movie where they were using "PASSIVE" sonar to detect the akula... their PASSIVE sonar, being a circular display going PING PING and showing a red glowing submarine icon? Sure, I've seen it.

Allow me to laugh at that one again...

Things like such were what made me want to bend over, but it might be considered too much a "technicality", bit too trivial to truly allow me to call the film unrealistic and a piece of horsedung.:rotfl::rotfl:
BWAHAHAhAAA! Oh, the sheer guts to put that in the film.
Y'know, some movies you just gaze at, and remain confident that the researchers hired by the makers have their own very internal jokes.

First of all the working instruments are classified, so they would and could never show them. Secondly, it's made for a wider audience then just the bearded folk who count rivets and go ballistic when they come up one short.

Seeing you lot are so hot on details...you think the Enigma machine in Das Boot is historically accurate? It's a 4 rotor type which was introduced in 1942. It should have been a 3 rotor type.

Is Das Boot the movie which shows a futuristic and non-existent piece of machinery? :rotfl:HAHA...wow they were advanced having a 4 rotor type Enigma machine. Did they teleport into the future and get it?

Wait a minute...I found something worse! When the boat is sinking in the straits, rivets ricochet through the "Zentrale" (interior Bridge). There were no rivets in this part of the boat, everything was welded. That to me is worse then a cartoony looking radar screen.


Oh yeay...Das Boot is SOOO realistic.

[Subnuts]

The rivets were coming off the internal fittings, not the pressure hull. And the four-rotor enigma was just a small mistake.

Oh, and Crimson Tide is sooooo realistic, too!
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0112740/goofs

Also, read these threads that appeared on sci.military.naval back when the movie came out.
http://tinyurl.com/h3utf

http://tinyurl.com/h95uy

Yup, no mistakes here!

[Saintaw]

Classified, ok... they COULD have done something a bit closer to what they show in DW or i688... that bright red PING PING sub icon was just... too... much. (Just like the "Mig 19s" in Top gun).

You seem to take this at heart...are you Gene Hackman by any chance?

[joea]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

First of all the working instruments are classified, so they would and could never show them. Secondly, it's made for a wider audience then just the bearded folk who count rivets and go ballistic when they come up one short.

Seeing you lot are so hot on details...you think the Enigma machine in Das Boot is historically accurate? It's a 4 rotor type which was introduced in 1942. It should have been a 3 rotor type.

Is Das Boot the movie which shows a futuristic and non-existent piece of machinery? :rotfl:HAHA...wow they were advanced having a 4 rotor type Enigma machine. Did they teleport into the future and get it?

Wait a minute...I found something worse! When the boat is sinking in the straits, rivets ricochet through the "Zentrale" (interior Bridge). There were no rivets in this part of the boat, everything was welded. That to me is worse then a cartoony looking radar screen.


Oh yeay...Das Boot is SOOO realistic.

Dude you are in a minority here, can you name another film that's better, for the period. No film gets the technical details 100% right, heck I saw a Russian (well Soviet era) WWII movie which had Tiger tanks in 1942 recently. Still a great film though.