Torpedo in the water!

[Enigma]

.....What do you do?

just curious to get an idea of what you guys normally do as an evasive tactic when fired upon....

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Enigma

.....What do you do?

just curious to get an idea of what you guys normally do as an evasive tactic when fired upon....

Wait some minutes to decide if the torpedo is coming for me, otherwise i stay low and silent.
As to the evasive tactics, most of them are illustrated in the "Multiplayer Tactical Employment Manual" available on subguru website.

[FERdeBOER]

Therea are several tactics.
i.e: you can read the Seawolves Bluebook (in download section of www.subguru.com) and ther's a section about that.

There's no a "universal" question about this, and after many tries and visits to the bottom, you will find your way.

I can say mine to you: is not very pollished, because I'm not an expert (even advanced), but many times works.

First, don't panic. Look the torp on your sonar screen. If is faint or you can't hear it, be calm, it's far. If you can see it clearly, is close, but not panic yet.

Look the movement, if the signal is moving, probably is not going to your direction, so the better thing to do is remain quiet and, if you judge is nedded, set course to opposite direction (because maybe when the torp becomes active, can catch you).
If the signal remains still... well, the torp is on your direction and very probably is closing. You can begin to panic

Now begins the personal way to evade. I've read about launching active or passive decoys depending if the torpedo is active or passive, but I'm not feel confindent with that.
My first move when I'm sure the torp is heading to my sub and it has possibilities (you will know that with practise), is manouevering my sub with the torp on a 45º angle of my stern, acceletare (but not to flank yet) and launch the two types of countermeasures on the opposite depth. After a while, when I'm sure the countermeasures are between the torp and my sub, I make a 90º turn and launch another couple of countermasures in the middle of the turn.

Contiune running for a while and then reduce to listen, many times I evaded the torp just with this.
If the torp continues behind you, begin to think on more agressive manoeuvers and at more speed... and yes, you can panic

Hope this helps.

[Nexus7]

It depends on witch platform I am driving, and on what platform my opponent is driving.
If the opponent drives an Akula and I drive a Seawolf but didn't yet detect him, I am 90% sure he hasn't got me. If I did detect him, the matter becomes more serious. I immediately check the BB sonar. If i see some fat traces the first thing i do, is to assign contact on SA and TA to gain a master asap and I start to worry. Having a master I know if I am already in danger or not, knowing the aquisition range of the ASROCS.

If the fishes are close (ASROCS) or in my direction (65cm, adcap...) I fire back immediately. If they're on my direction but not ASROC, if i can i go hide behind some seamount and clear datum.

If there are helos or Orions in game, things become more complex...

[Deadeye313]

what about for us FFG players? how do we get away? We don't have countermeasures and we would need an island to hide.

[LuftWolf]

You have the Nixie, which is 85% effective against non-wakehoming torpedoes (at least for one use until you can rig it back in and out again).

First of all, countermeasures other than the Nixie should not make torpedoes explode on CM's and that's the way it is in LWAMI so my answer will account for this.

I am also assuming you have verified that the torpedoes are actually headed your way, which is a whole different topic. Evading torpedoes not aimed at you is worse than evading late.

In stock DW, for subs, set course 180 from the incoming torpedo, and fire two decoys. Repeat this until there are no more torpedoes in the water.

For LWAMI, (for LWAMI4, to be released, GO DEEP! most torpedoes lose speed at depth, and some can even be made to exceed max depth and shut down if they are tracking you) I recommend setting course initially 180 from the incoming torpedo and going to flank. Fire a single active decoy, and then another active decoy about 1-2 seconds later. Then turn course 90-130 from the torpedo (using a more acute angle to the torpedo if it is closer, hard left or right rudder to a full reverse course if you believe the torpedo has already acquired your decoys). Then head on until you don't think the torpedo is a threat any more (not pinging you), or you need to slow down and reestablish situational awareness.

Generally speaking, the more you run, the more you increase your chances of dying from something other than the torpedo you are evading. Use only enough to get away, with the following exception. If someone really has the drop on you, and you want to get out, then stay on a fast evading course, to "clear datum" and make sure you don't stop until you are out of range, but if you want to stay engaged, don't go running around aimlessly.

For the FFG's, for LWAMI and stock the plan is more or less the same, clear datum at about 90-130 degrees at max speed with the Nixie streamed. If you are facing more than one torpedo or wakehomers, then your situation is much more serious. For acoustic homing torpedoes, you have to hope you can clear the datum. Wakehomers can be avoided easily by the FFG if you are at 5kts or under... sprint at an angle for some distance and then cut to 5kts.

Cheers,
David

[Nexus7]

When I know my opponent to be a competent one or an experienced opponent, I say "****" he found me!

All I do is assign trackers to the incomings and try to hide and disappear, hoping on a second round (if I can't hide I have to shot back on the bearing and prepare to pray).

If I don't achieve to disappear or to succesfully randomly engage the opponent I give everything to evade.

If my evasive maneuvers are successfull I now randomly know where my opponent could be, but this is just his bearing, and some minutes ago. Since I use to drive advanced platforms in therms of sonar capability I am not used to be overrun in matter of aquisition, thus allowing me to offer an intersting fight.

If the torpedo comes from the air and is close and an heli is around I just go deep and disappear, try to clear datum as fast as possible.

Sometimes, you just can't manage

[Werewolf13]

I've not played DW online yet but played Sub Command online for about 2 years so I've got some experience in this.

Tactics are different when playing a human than when playing the AI. Most of what has been mentioned above will spoof the AI.

When playing a human though things get dicey. One of the things I would do that worked against inexperienced and sometimes even moderately experienced drivers was recon by torpedoe.

If you get a faint or intermittent sonar track on the waterfall I'd put a torp in the water and just drive it (and making sure not to drive it straight in so as not to get a snapshot in return) to where I thought the enemy was without going active with it. the inexperienced guys very often would panic and go to flank which would allow me to lock 'em up easily. The more experienced guys might just speed up a little but that was often enough to get a solid lock.

The really experienced guys would change course but not speed to firm up their own lock on the torp and more often than not would figure out that the torp was in recon mode. They stayed slow, would change depth, course etc to confuse what they knew was a really weak contact for me.

Point is don't speed up unless you absolutely have to...

[LuftWolf]

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

Straight searching torpedoes and wire breaks ought to fix this problem. The straight searching torpedoes will probably make double kills a lot more frequent because someone who counter fires a straight search torpedo will have their torpedo arrive at right about the same time the recon-torpedo shooter's torpedo does.

The wire breaks will force them to close a little bit more if they want to maintain the wire, or fire torpedoes in cleverly designed patterns to improve one's chances statistically.

It won't make recon-by-torpedo a completely ineffective tactic, but it will definitely take some of the fangs out of it, making it a lot more dangerous and uncertain when it makes sense and how well it will work. That makes sense to me.

[Wildcat]

Yes, I was recently sunk by someone who just launched 2 adcaps and acquired me by torpedo detection alone, he never had a sonar contact at all.

This is totally unrealistic and hopefully with snapping wires this kind of cheap play will be eliminated.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Yes, I was recently sunk by someone who just launched 2 adcaps and acquired me by torpedo detection alone, he never had a sonar contact at all.

This is totally unrealistic and hopefully with snapping wires this kind of cheap play will be eliminated.

Shouldn't this already represent a weak move for him? While he doesn't yet know where you are, you now know where he is...

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Shouldn't this already represent a weak move for him? While he doesn't yet know where you are, you now know where he is...

It's actually a quite strong position. The problem lies in torpedo average speeds, and the size of the area in which the scenario is taking place.

Suppose you counter fired a snake searching torpedo in response to his shot. Because your torpedo is now zig-zagging, and his is going straight, his will arrive at your position first.

Now... if you could shoot a straight searching torpedo. He'd have to think twice because your torpedo is going to arrive on target at almost the same time his will. Suddenly the gamble doesn't always look so good to him.

In naval warfare in general, one of the most important principles of tactics (see Capt. Wayne Hughes book), is to SHOOT EFFECTIVELY FIRST. The idea is that modern weapons are so potentially lethal that if you are able to always have the first shot advantage, you'll probably do really well most of the time, provided you're able to overwhelm the enemy's countermeasures.

Shooting with no other information, thus confers to the munchkin the first shot advantage. In real life, he wouldn't be at an advantage, necessarily because someone could just as easily shoot a torpedo right back at him with an equal or greater chance of hitting him, so the outcome of this battle ought to be a coin flip. In the battle he described, the person taking the time to develop a firing solution tends to lose, even though, he might have a better idea of where the munchkin is.

Now... none of this really matters, though, if the torpedo is unlikely to find a target. But.. if you don't chose the size of the scenario area wisely, you can make this tactic EXTREMELY effective because in essense the enemy is ALREADY localized from the moment the scenario starts.

Suppose a torpedo can see 2Nmi in both directions. Therefore it searches an area about 4Nmi wide. Traveling at 55kts, the in one hour the torpedo has searched 220 Nmi^2. That corresponds to a box about 15x15Nmi. Now... suppose you are going 5kts and you can see 18Nmi. In one hour, you've only searched 90Nmi^2. Given the scale of the scenarios many people build, recon by torpedo means that in less than an hour, your torpedo will very likely have found the bad guy first. In that situation, it's the best thing to do.

So, given the two factors: your torpedo will most likely arrive on target before his does, and that your torpedo is a more effective searcher than you, in the absense of wire breaks and straight searching torpedoes, it's actually a pretty good tactic.

[Nexus7]

I really would like to face such a poor player: if he dares to shoot first without having some accettable solution he would regret his dumb move pretty certainly.

The advantage in shooting second is to be able to quickly produce a master contact on his fish, with gives you also his actual position. Assume I am driving an Akula, I have all the time to fire ASROCS on his dumb head

Next time, at least vs an Akula, he'd think twice.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Next time, at least vs an Akula, he'd think twice.

The Starfish helps a lot because they give you better counterfire. My intuition is that torpedoes would probably be a little bit better, though. The option to employ a straight searching torpedo all by itself would give one more effective counterfire, and largely neutralize the tactic. Wire breaks would be the nail in the coffin.

Torpedo speed can be really critical. As they're modeled in the game, they've got the highest search rates of any platform. I don't blame anyone for using them as a sensor when I look at it through that lens.