In the immortal words of Ali G ‘Respect’, a new way of playing… - Page 2

Wulfmann · 06-03-06, 10:44 AM

I really need to pay more attention to what you are doing so I do not pull my hair out doing research on something you have already worked out.
That said realism is subjective.
What I mean is real 1943-45 convoys had 20-30 escorts with sweepers out front of our lead DD with extended screens and with Hunter killer groups behind to relieve the escorts once they arrived to take over attacking the U-Boats.
I admit that 20-30 as realism is excessive at this point but right now I am at 8-10 with tweaking the ships and sensors. (all 3 rated)
My feeling is one should be easy enough to escape (Osten’s was not typical by other accounts) 2 should be dangerous and 3 or more should be extremely difficult.
However, realism would also mean 12-36 hours of being held under and I can tell you 4 plus hours is not as much fun as one might think in real time; 1X (You have virtually no chance at anything but 1X)
My point is realism needs to have real screens and I find that the screens only start to go double row above 9 escorts. Try a convoy with say 15 and you will see the flanks get layered escorts, which is real, no sneaking in from the side across the bows of modern escorts.
They developed the FAT torpedoes for a reason.
We need to be forced to act and react as real Kaleun’s did and against the quantity and quality of the known enemy.
Making a convoy attack very difficult that has 4 escorts is not at all real. Even in late war a big convoy with only 4 escorts would be slaughtered. Coastal convoys had 4 escorts by 1944. testing late war convoy attacks against such small numbers does not imitate reality at all, IMO
I have redone all the English traffic (those multi ship groups) to be heavily escorted coastal convoys. Very nice to see 3 or 4 merchant ships and 2 to 4 escorts and this was what Post D-Day U-Boat activity represents.
We need to edit the dates so after D-Day the patrol grids are real, ergo around England and not how they are.
Anyway I will try to pay closer attention to your post so I benefit from your research and I may even have a valid point myself once in a while!

Wulfmann

Stiebler · 06-03-06, 11:24 AM

Re Wulfmann's heavily escorted convoys:

The new NYGM 2.0 has up to 15 escorts (typically 10-12) disposed around late-war convoys.

Above about 10 escorts, frame-rate perceptibly slows once you approach the convoy (I'm using a standard 1024 MB RAM/ 256 MB graphics card/ 2.0 GHz CPU, which is probably of slightly above average specification for SH3, and well above Ubisoft's stated minimun requirement). I'd hate to play against 30 escorts just for this reason, quite apart from any other.

This number of escorts, with NYGM's new sensors for escorts, provides a very serious barricade to any U-boat trying to reach the merchant ships. You will soon find, just like a real U-boat commander, that it is safer to fire salvos of long-range torpedoes from outside the screen.

Stiebler.

Stiebler · 06-03-06, 11:43 AM

Lest anyone be concerned that the new, realistic, NYGM TW 2.0 escort sensors are too sensitive (as they will appear to be on first encountering them), let me cite some examples from my own testing. To make it tough, in Sept-Dec 1944 (North Atlantic, North Sea).

The real trick is to go to silent running at 1 kt, at the deepest depth possible. I find the stealth meter to be indispensable. While this may sound like cheating, I've always taken the view that, whereas the real captain had a crew of 50 to tell him who is close and who is not, the SH3 captain has to derive the same information from the computer - via the stealth meter.

In practice:
a) Convoy attacks - always approaching these 12-escort late war convoys submerged, towards the edge of the convoy. Firing from outside the screen usually, but if necessary move in under the merchant ships to make the escorts' job harder. Naturally, fewer sinkings than previously. One of the new un-nerving aspects of attacking convoys is when it suddenly turns towards you.
b) Caught by hunter-killer group of three destroyers in North Sea north of Scapa Flow, while trying to return to Bergen. After about half an hour of real time, managed to slip away (deep water).
c) Attacks on two of the new UK east-coast convoys in shallow water - evaded escorts quite easily actually, but forced to fire from so far away that only one ship sunk from each convoy.
d) Caught by two warships while trying to enter Rosyth harbour (shallow water). Again, evaded finally.

After a day or two (real time) to learn the knack of avoiding the escorts, suddenly everything has become a much more exciting challenge. Brilliant work again by Observer (hydrophones/asdic) and Teddy Bar (sightings/radar)!

Stiebler.

NYGM Tonnage War Mod - Leading Edge Realism

Wulfmann · 06-03-06, 04:10 PM

10-12 sounds very good. First I have ever heard that anyone has tried to have so many in any (released) Mod.
I will be interested to see how you tweaked things particularly the ships rudders and props. I have decided to vary these so no merchant type is alike (by very little say 0.055 or 0.057 or 0.058 or 0.06) same with warships but less like 0.035 or 0.037 or 0.04 etc etc)

I hope this new variation of tweaking finally gets us extrame difficulty in a realistic manner that allows survival.

Wulfmann

Der Teddy Bar · 06-03-06, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

10-12 sounds very good. First I have ever heard that anyone has tried to have so many in any (released) Mod.
I will be interested to see how you tweaked things particularly the ships rudders and props. I have decided to vary these so no merchant type is alike (by very little say 0.055 or 0.057 or 0.058 or 0.06) same with warships but less like 0.035 or 0.037 or 0.04 etc etc)

I hope this new variation of tweaking finally gets us extrame difficulty in a realistic manner that allows survival.

Wulfmann

Actually the NYGM MediterraneanCampaign update by Charlie901 has been there done that

panthercules · 06-11-06, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Actually the NYGM MediterraneanCampaign update by Charlie901 has been there done that

Sorry if this is already answered somewhere else - I've not had much time to follow the latest flurry of NYGM release threads and am kinda stuck waiting till I get back from my current patrol before I start messing with trying to install the latest NYGM release, but does the latest NYGM-TW already include the Med campaign update you mention above or do you need to D/L and add it separately?

Thanks for all the great work - I'm hoping the dust settles a little by the time I get back to port though, 'cause I've managed to get thoroughly confused about exactly what ship and u-boat damage models and vis/spotting models are included in what versions and whether you can just D/L and install one package or whether or how many patch/fixes/etc you might have to add on after you D/L the basic new version of NYGM to get the full effect of the latest improvements. So much good work seems to be going on that it's hard to keep up. I guess that's a good kind of problem to have, conpared to the alternative, but it does get confusing to us mere mortals around here.

Der Teddy Bar · 06-11-06, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panthercules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Actually the NYGM MediterraneanCampaign update by Charlie901 has been there done that

Sorry if this is already answered somewhere else - I've not had much time to follow the latest flurry of NYGM release threads and am kinda stuck waiting till I get back from my current patrol before I start messing with trying to install the latest NYGM release, but does the latest NYGM-TW already include the Med campaign update you mention above or do you need to D/L and add it separately?

Thanks for all the great work - I'm hoping the dust settles a little by the time I get back to port though, 'cause I've managed to get thoroughly confused about exactly what ship and u-boat damage models and vis/spotting models are included in what versions and whether you can just D/L and install one package or whether or how many patch/fixes/etc you might have to add on after you D/L the basic new version of NYGM to get the full effect of the latest improvements. So much good work seems to be going on that it's hard to keep up. I guess that's a good kind of problem to have, conpared to the alternative, but it does get confusing to us mere mortals around here.

The massive Mediterranean Campaign update by Charlie901 is included in the NYGM TW 2.0

We have also included as an option the great Harbour Traffic by Rubini

In addition, I am very excited about Stieblers additions to the NYGM Tonnage War Campaign.

British Coastal Convoys
- London to Firth of Clyde
- Liverpool to London
- Hull to Dundee
- Dundee to Hull
- London to Southhampton
- Southhampton to London
- Hart to Harwich

Tanker Convoys
- Port of Spain to New York
- Curoco to Charleston
- Curoco to Galveston
- Mombassa to Capetown

Atlantic Convoys
- Halifax to Iceland
- Iceland to Halifax
- Porto Rico to Azores
- Axores to Porto Rico
- Coruna to the Canary Islands
- Durban to Zanzibar
- Rio to Freetown

D-Day
- London to Antwerp

Where appropriate we have 39 to 43 & 43 to 45 versions

06-03-06, 10:44 AM	#16
Wulfmann Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 1,010 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I really need to pay more attention to what you are doing so I do not pull my hair out doing research on something you have already worked out. That said realism is subjective. What I mean is real 1943-45 convoys had 20-30 escorts with sweepers out front of our lead DD with extended screens and with Hunter killer groups behind to relieve the escorts once they arrived to take over attacking the U-Boats. I admit that 20-30 as realism is excessive at this point but right now I am at 8-10 with tweaking the ships and sensors. (all 3 rated) My feeling is one should be easy enough to escape (Osten’s was not typical by other accounts) 2 should be dangerous and 3 or more should be extremely difficult. However, realism would also mean 12-36 hours of being held under and I can tell you 4 plus hours is not as much fun as one might think in real time; 1X (You have virtually no chance at anything but 1X) My point is realism needs to have real screens and I find that the screens only start to go double row above 9 escorts. Try a convoy with say 15 and you will see the flanks get layered escorts, which is real, no sneaking in from the side across the bows of modern escorts. They developed the FAT torpedoes for a reason. We need to be forced to act and react as real Kaleun’s did and against the quantity and quality of the known enemy. Making a convoy attack very difficult that has 4 escorts is not at all real. Even in late war a big convoy with only 4 escorts would be slaughtered. Coastal convoys had 4 escorts by 1944. testing late war convoy attacks against such small numbers does not imitate reality at all, IMO I have redone all the English traffic (those multi ship groups) to be heavily escorted coastal convoys. Very nice to see 3 or 4 merchant ships and 2 to 4 escorts and this was what Post D-Day U-Boat activity represents. We need to edit the dates so after D-Day the patrol grids are real, ergo around England and not how they are. Anyway I will try to pay closer attention to your post so I benefit from your research and I may even have a valid point myself once in a while! Wulfmann __________________ "The right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed upon, if only to prevent tyranny in government" Thomas Jefferson,; Constitutional debates

06-03-06, 04:10 PM	#19
Wulfmann Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 1,010 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	10-12 sounds very good. First I have ever heard that anyone has tried to have so many in any (released) Mod. I will be interested to see how you tweaked things particularly the ships rudders and props. I have decided to vary these so no merchant type is alike (by very little say 0.055 or 0.057 or 0.058 or 0.06) same with warships but less like 0.035 or 0.037 or 0.04 etc etc) I hope this new variation of tweaking finally gets us extrame difficulty in a realistic manner that allows survival. Wulfmann __________________ "The right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed upon, if only to prevent tyranny in government" Thomas Jefferson,; Constitutional debates

06-03-06, 11:24 AM	#17
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Re Wulfmann's heavily escorted convoys: The new NYGM 2.0 has up to 15 escorts (typically 10-12) disposed around late-war convoys. Above about 10 escorts, frame-rate perceptibly slows once you approach the convoy (I'm using a standard 1024 MB RAM/ 256 MB graphics card/ 2.0 GHz CPU, which is probably of slightly above average specification for SH3, and well above Ubisoft's stated minimun requirement). I'd hate to play against 30 escorts just for this reason, quite apart from any other. This number of escorts, with NYGM's new sensors for escorts, provides a very serious barricade to any U-boat trying to reach the merchant ships. You will soon find, just like a real U-boat commander, that it is safer to fire salvos of long-range torpedoes from outside the screen. Stiebler.

06-03-06, 11:43 AM	#18
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Lest anyone be concerned that the new, realistic, NYGM TW 2.0 escort sensors are too sensitive (as they will appear to be on first encountering them), let me cite some examples from my own testing. To make it tough, in Sept-Dec 1944 (North Atlantic, North Sea). The real trick is to go to silent running at 1 kt, at the deepest depth possible. I find the stealth meter to be indispensable. While this may sound like cheating, I've always taken the view that, whereas the real captain had a crew of 50 to tell him who is close and who is not, the SH3 captain has to derive the same information from the computer - via the stealth meter. In practice: a) Convoy attacks - always approaching these 12-escort late war convoys submerged, towards the edge of the convoy. Firing from outside the screen usually, but if necessary move in under the merchant ships to make the escorts' job harder. Naturally, fewer sinkings than previously. One of the new un-nerving aspects of attacking convoys is when it suddenly turns towards you. b) Caught by hunter-killer group of three destroyers in North Sea north of Scapa Flow, while trying to return to Bergen. After about half an hour of real time, managed to slip away (deep water). c) Attacks on two of the new UK east-coast convoys in shallow water - evaded escorts quite easily actually, but forced to fire from so far away that only one ship sunk from each convoy. d) Caught by two warships while trying to enter Rosyth harbour (shallow water). Again, evaded finally. After a day or two (real time) to learn the knack of avoiding the escorts, suddenly everything has become a much more exciting challenge. Brilliant work again by Observer (hydrophones/asdic) and Teddy Bar (sightings/radar)! Stiebler. NYGM Tonnage War Mod - Leading Edge Realism