Realism mod (discussion)

[Julhelm]

We never had any proper tools to debug the AI during development. We've since developed something so expect major improvements in this area in the coming patches.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

We never had any proper tools to debug the AI during development. We've since developed something so expect major improvements in this area in the coming patches.

That's some great news.
Keep it up

[Lanzfeld]

Yes.....very good news.

Onward and upwards!

[Lanzfeld]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Well that does look suspect. I'll forward the video.

Julhelm,
Did you ever follow up on this?
This is a big one if the AI is cheating.

[subunit]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Julhelm,
Did you ever follow up on this?
This is a big one if the AI is cheating.

From 1.02b changelog:

AI subs must maintain contact to continue wire guiding torpedoes

[Julhelm]

You know, AI always cheats in games. And in the event someone was to make a really brilliant AI, everyone would automatically assume it to be cheating AI anyway. Most of the AI cheats here, though, are due to bugs or oversights since we haven't had any good AI debug tools until now.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Well, we have 300 tons of displacement between them so there is some leeway here. Perhaps I should fine-tune it so that a Mark 48 can just barely kill a Sierra but just almost kill Sovremenny.

I've been doing some thinking while rummaging through the customizable text files.

If "displacement" primarily controls the ship's survivability, with its maneuverability really being controlled by "Acceleration", "Deceleration", "Turn Rate" ... etc, then we can increase the differential between surface ships and submarines by using the sub's surfaced displacement value (for a Sierra, it is 6300 tons) as the starting point, not the submerged value.

After all, comparing apples to apples, the real mass of a sub is its surfaced displacement. Its submerged displacement is preplanned flooding with seawater. Why should that be considered part of the ship, and even its survivability guestimated on that basis?

What do you think? This should make it much easier to have vulnerable subs and suitably tough surface ships.

[Lanzfeld]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

You know, AI always cheats in games. And in the event someone was to make a really brilliant AI, everyone would automatically assume it to be cheating AI anyway. Most of the AI cheats here, though, are due to bugs or oversights since we haven't had any good AI debug tools until now.

I see.......

Are you going to eliminate the AI cheats or keep them in there?

[FPSchazly]

Is displacement really the primary factor? Isn't it reserve buoyancy? I am not a naval architect or know much about this topic, but given an American sub and a Russian sub of the same displacement and assuming the American is single-hulled and the Russian is double-hulled, the Russian sub would have a higher survivability due to increased reserve buoyancy.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I've been doing some thinking while rummaging through the customizable text files.

If "displacement" primarily controls the ship's survivability, with its maneuverability really being controlled by "Acceleration", "Deceleration", "Turn Rate" ... etc, then we can increase the differential between surface ships and submarines by using the sub's surfaced displacement value (for a Sierra, it is 6300 tons) as the starting point, not the submerged value.

After all, comparing apples to apples, the real mass of a sub is its surfaced displacement. Its submerged displacement is preplanned flooding with seawater. Why should that be considered part of the ship, and even its survivability guestimated on that basis?

What do you think? This should make it much easier to have vulnerable subs and suitably tough surface ships.

It's a good idea. Will have to test to see if it doesn't affect diving/surfacing.

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Is displacement really the primary factor? Isn't it reserve buoyancy? I am not a naval architect or know much about this topic, but given an American sub and a Russian sub of the same displacement and assuming the American is single-hulled and the Russian is double-hulled, the Russian sub would have a higher survivability due to increased reserve buoyancy.

The only proof I have is a little test I made. I've significantly bumped displacement for Alligator (basically added one 0 to the number) and tried to sink it in tutorial mission. If I remember correctly it took 4 torpedoes to sink it, but instead of sinking it just flipped over and floated on the surface.
That's why I'm cautious about changing displacement and that's why I choose to account for different hull designs by modifying Player and AI hull modifiers in difficulty settings.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

If you can provide these tactics to us, we can incorporate them into the AI. That'd go a long way towards getting more believable behavior out of them.

Indeed, better feedback than, "It just feels wrong," is needed. Are there any published sources of doctrine, training, or tactics available? I'd be more than happy to purchase and read such documents in order to provide analysis.
Given the fact naval combat never actually broke out during the Cold War, the only source we have for information is educated speculation, and what unclassified after action reports are available.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

The AI uses the same TMA and sensor algorithms as the player and generally shoots only on an >85% solution.

Can you include in the A.I. a tendency to counterfire down the bearing of an incoming torpedo, even if they have no contacts detected? From what I've seen, this barely happens.
Even if they have no target detected, any incoming torpedo indicates an enemy is present somewhere down that bearing, and it would at least give the player something to account for before opening fire.

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Using MekStark's low underwater visibility mod.

The ability to see sonar contacts in the 3D environment is one of the tools provided to the player.
I never understood why blindfolding the player is considered "realistic" especially if one wants to take screenshots or record video. All it does is make water dark because "water is dark".
Given the fact the player is tasked with literally driving their submarine around using the WASD keys, low visibility is only a hindrance, not an enhancement.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

After all, comparing apples to apples, the real mass of a sub is its surfaced displacement. Its submerged displacement is preplanned flooding with seawater. Why should that be considered part of the ship, and even its survivability guestimated on that basis?

I think a more complete understanding between ship displacement and toughness is needed, especially if part of the ship physics is controlled using displacement values.
You don't want huge submarines suddenly driving around as if they only massed a fraction of their submerged displacement.

[keltos01]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

We never had any proper tools to debug the AI during development. We've since developed something so expect major improvements in this area in the coming patches.

love your AI (erm actually kindo hate it ! )

[Julhelm]

So, you guys are not going to get any results from changing displacement. Everything you need to change to tweak the maneuvering characteristics is the movement part of the ship data:

SurfaceSpeed=16
SubmergedSpeed=0
AccelerationRate=0.08
DecelerationRate=0.08
RudderTurnRate=0.5
TurnRate=2
PivotPointTurning=0.256
DiveRate=0
SurfaceRate=0
BallastRate=0

The movement system is based on translations, not actual boyancy physics. In fact, the boyancy physics do not kick in until ships/subs are damaged and start flooding.

The default settings for the subs were made to feel very responsive on purpose. Nobody likes sluggish, ketchup-bottle controls, realistic or not.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

The movement system is based on translations, not actual boyancy physics. In fact, the boyancy physics do not kick in until ships/subs are damaged and start flooding.

That's good to know, although 24 too late (already managed to adjust warhead sizes just yesterday).
This might get useful later, so thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Nobody likes sluggish, ketchup-bottle controls, realistic or not.

I wouldn't be so sure about that

BTW, all I need to do now is add inertia to other us boats and I'll be uploading "Realism" mod v0.2

[subunit]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Nobody likes sluggish, ketchup-bottle controls, realistic or not.

, he said, in a forum whose denizens had put man-years of labour into making sure that sampans would continue to float realistically after taking hundreds of 3" shells,