All seeing Helos

drEaPer · 05-07-06, 11:02 AM

Greetings,

got another phenomenon I need you guys to help me with. It happens to me, that when I use the FFG and its helos, the helos magically put enemy subs on the link without there beeing any chanec that they could have spotted them.

Let me give one example.
I started my ASW helo, and directly after it was airborne, it detected a LA688 about 10nm away and put it on the link. There was no buoy in the water yet and the player told me he was slow, not surfacing, not using radar.

Some min later the 2nd enemy sub had been put on the link by one of my helos (quick launch was activated, so I had both helos in the air pretty quick). The Kilo also wasnt surfacing or using radar. It was all the way at the other end of the mission area!

One helo was put on accoutic, one was on radar.

Can anyone explain this all seeing eye behavior?
I like to play the FFG but this feels like cheating!

cheers!

OKO · 05-07-06, 11:08 AM

If you use LWAMI, helo often use the dipping sonar.
they don't with stock DW.
But he shouldn't be able to catch you with his dipping more than 10 miles away.
And when the sub is face or rear to the dipping, the detection distance is really very close.
less than 2 miles.

OKO · 05-07-06, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drEaPer

One helo was put on accoutic, one was on radar.

this concern only your personnal choice of use =>

If you switched to radar, you could use the REMRO, but you can't use the helo to connect to buoys

If you switched to acoustic, you could use GRAMs with helo but you can't change the REMRO status.

In both side, helo will continue to work at GRAMs and at radar (if you switched ON the REMRO with radar mode before switching to acoustic)

Molon Labe · 05-07-06, 12:02 PM

I believe LW/Ami actually addressed a lot of the stock link problems.

Deathblow · 05-07-06, 12:48 PM

That's a good question. Was this a stock or modded game?

drEaPer · 05-07-06, 05:21 PM

Its was not modded. Stock DW 1.03

OKO: The first helo was on accoustic the second on radar. I established link with the first to read the buoys and was getting link data for surface contacts from the 2nd.

The thing is, that the first enemy sub was spotted by helo #1 shortly after it took off and the 2nd sub was spotted FAR FAR away.
And the "Age" of the link contact didnt increase! Its age was all the time 0:00 which means there is a plattform on my side that is tracking the sub. But who? My partner was in a 688 waaay off, and the helos just took off.
Guess some aliens from outta space used their magic device o\/O

LuftWolf · 05-07-06, 05:57 PM

I'm pretty sure the combination of the playable sensors on the helo, the stock helo doctrines, and the way the helo is launched means with the uber sensitive helo active sonar (the stock helo dipping sonar in active mode is about 1000 times more sensitive than the SeaWolf active sonar, it just has a shorter hardcap of around 20000 yards), the AI helo will sometimes detect contacts at the moment of launch, without giving an Active Intercept return for the detected contacts.

Then, because the stock game doesn't allow the helos to drop their contacts, they are tracked indefinately by the helo once they are detected.

Stock DW. Fun, yeah, lots of fun. LWAMI, which fixes all of these problem, is a cheat, and ruins the game.

:P

:rotfl:

drEaPer · 05-09-06, 11:51 AM

No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic.
If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever. I play the mod, yes, but only if ppl ask me to, because I wanna play and the community is small already, so I play whenever I can.. LWAMI or not... Im in kinda some conflict, cause as I said, there is much cool stuff in it, but to many estimates...
Ok sorry, I dont wanan discuss LWAMI here, this thread is abut AI helo making trouble in MP on player controlled FFG (You got me in your icq list, if you wanna, just send me a msg there).
Your explanation makes sense. What can be done to avoid it?

Molon Labe · 05-09-06, 01:32 PM

The stock game is broken in many ways. The solution is to stop using it, since we have a working alternative!

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 03:00 PM

Quote:

No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic.
If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever.

Well one thing can't be denied... my informant is certainly better than the one SCS is using. :rotfl:

Remember, a Collins class sub is as loud as a Han!

Akula sphere sonar is just as sensitive as a SW!

The 688i doesn't have a Tb-23!

The Miasnikovs Papers and the calculations based off of them that jsteed, finiteless, and Amizaur did are totally made up!

What you guys don't realize is that this stuff is NOT pulled from thin air. We have data, and its good data, certainly much better than whatever crap Sonalysts contracted out for.

I've never been on an Akula, but this work was done before me. In fact, this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled. If thomas were here, would you still be saying "oh the mod data... its all just made up!".

What a bunch of crap... good thing I really don't care. The mod will continue to improve, even if the ignorance of certain parts of the community does not.

One quick question, has anyone played a modded game where there was a cheater? :hmm:

hunter301 · 05-09-06, 03:24 PM

Quote:

The stock game is broken in many ways. The solution is to stop using it, since we have a working alternative!

And what is the alternative?
....forgive me I have been away for some time meditating in a tibetan temple.

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 03:27 PM

LuftWolf and Amizaurs Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod, now in version 3.02!

(link at the bottom of my signature, shameless plug)

Bubblehead Nuke · 05-09-06, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled.

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.

LuftWolf · 05-09-06, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled.

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.

What happened is Thomas had twins and dropped off the SubSim radar.

The only thing SCX gives you that is possible in DW that LWAMI doesn't have at the moment is new 3-d models and new non-playable platforms, and these are coming. And in fact, LWAMI has done a lot with DW that isn't done or possible in SC or SCX.

So I'm not sure why people are waiting for a mod on which there has been no news in over a year. :hmm:

Bubblehead Nuke · 05-10-06, 12:24 AM

Just never heard that it is a dead item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luftwolf

And in fact, LWAMI has done a lot with DW that isn't done or possible in SC or SCX.

As far as what you get with your mod, I love it. I like how you have taking a lot of the 'arcadish' things out and made it more.. well.. tedious. That is what ASW warfare is like. Myself and TopTorp served on a boat together. I have seen the fatigue level that can be attained when trying to do our jobs. The CONSTANT mental 'What if's"

Do I WANT that in DW at RL levels???? No. But I like to have some of it in there so that there is a taste of what we did.

05-07-06, 12:02 PM	#4
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	I believe LW/Ami actually addressed a lot of the stock link problems. __________________

05-07-06, 05:57 PM	#7
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I'm pretty sure the combination of the playable sensors on the helo, the stock helo doctrines, and the way the helo is launched means with the uber sensitive helo active sonar (the stock helo dipping sonar in active mode is about 1000 times more sensitive than the SeaWolf active sonar, it just has a shorter hardcap of around 20000 yards), the AI helo will sometimes detect contacts at the moment of launch, without giving an Active Intercept return for the detected contacts. Then, because the stock game doesn't allow the helos to drop their contacts, they are tracked indefinately by the helo once they are detected. Stock DW. Fun, yeah, lots of fun. LWAMI, which fixes all of these problem, is a cheat, and ruins the game. :P :rotfl: __________________ LW

05-09-06, 01:32 PM	#9
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	The stock game is broken in many ways. The solution is to stop using it, since we have a working alternative! __________________

05-09-06, 03:27 PM	#12
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	LuftWolf and Amizaurs Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod, now in version 3.02! (link at the bottom of my signature, shameless plug) __________________ LW

05-07-06, 11:02 AM	#1
drEaPer Navy Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 176 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	All seeing Helos Greetings, got another phenomenon I need you guys to help me with. It happens to me, that when I use the FFG and its helos, the helos magically put enemy subs on the link without there beeing any chanec that they could have spotted them. Let me give one example. I started my ASW helo, and directly after it was airborne, it detected a LA688 about 10nm away and put it on the link. There was no buoy in the water yet and the player told me he was slow, not surfacing, not using radar. Some min later the 2nd enemy sub had been put on the link by one of my helos (quick launch was activated, so I had both helos in the air pretty quick). The Kilo also wasnt surfacing or using radar. It was all the way at the other end of the mission area! One helo was put on accoutic, one was on radar. Can anyone explain this all seeing eye behavior? I like to play the FFG but this feels like cheating! cheers!

05-07-06, 11:08 AM	#2
OKO Commander Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Solar system, mainly on earth Posts: 476 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	If you use LWAMI, helo often use the dipping sonar. they don't with stock DW. But he shouldn't be able to catch you with his dipping more than 10 miles away. And when the sub is face or rear to the dipping, the detection distance is really very close. less than 2 miles.

05-07-06, 12:48 PM	#5
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That's a good question. Was this a stock or modded game?

05-07-06, 05:21 PM	#6
drEaPer Navy Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 176 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Its was not modded. Stock DW 1.03 OKO: The first helo was on accoustic the second on radar. I established link with the first to read the buoys and was getting link data for surface contacts from the 2nd. The thing is, that the first enemy sub was spotted by helo #1 shortly after it took off and the 2nd sub was spotted FAR FAR away. And the "Age" of the link contact didnt increase! Its age was all the time 0:00 which means there is a plattform on my side that is tracking the sub. But who? My partner was in a 688 waaay off, and the helos just took off. Guess some aliens from outta space used their magic device o\/O

05-09-06, 11:51 AM	#8
drEaPer Navy Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 176 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic. If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever. I play the mod, yes, but only if ppl ask me to, because I wanna play and the community is small already, so I play whenever I can.. LWAMI or not... Im in kinda some conflict, cause as I said, there is much cool stuff in it, but to many estimates... Ok sorry, I dont wanan discuss LWAMI here, this thread is abut AI helo making trouble in MP on player controlled FFG (You got me in your icq list, if you wanna, just send me a msg there). Your explanation makes sense. What can be done to avoid it?