WW2 shipwrecks vanished

[Jace11]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37997640

Mysterious stuff, I can't fathom how this could be done without anyone noticing...

[Aktungbby]

That is weird and the Indians wouldn't do it to a British ship....I wonder who needs that much salvaged steel (and has the time and equipment)!?? and otherwise commits piracy in that portion of the world... and has no respect for our ancestors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Indonesia Now I'll wonder guiltily where the steel for my cheap Harry's Razor service really comes from!

[Torplexed]

It's hard to believe that this underwater disappearing act hasn't been done without the connivance of Indonesian officials. I know the wrecks of the USS Houston and HMAS Perth have been picked over too. But not to point of outright vanishing. Not yet anyway.

By the way has anyone checked the bottom of Ironbottom Sound lately?

[Jimbuna]

Absolutely disgusting acts, showing no regard or respect for those who fought to maintain their own freedom from tyranny and oppression!

Three Dutch World War Two ships considered war graves have vanished from the bottom of the Java Sea, the Dutch defence ministry says.
All three were sunk by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in 1942, and their wrecks were discovered by divers in 2002.
A report in the Guardian says three British ships have disappeared as well.
The British government says it is "distressed" by the reports and is investigating.
A new expedition to mark next year's 75th anniversary of the battle found the wrecks missing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37997640

Three British ships and a US submarine that sank in the Java Sea during the second world war have been destroyed by illegal scrap metal scavengers, the Guardian can reveal.

The UK’s Ministry of Defence said it condemned the “unauthorised disturbance of any wreck containing human remains” and requested Indonesian authorities investigate and take “appropriate action”.

The commercial salvaging of war wrecks has caused significant upset among veterans, historians and governments who want to preserve the final resting place of sailors who went down with their ships.


Mystery as wrecks of three Dutch WWII ships vanish from Java seabed
Read more
A preliminary report from an expedition to document sunken ships, seen by the Guardian, shows that the wrecks of HMS Exeter, a 175m heavy cruiser, and destroyer HMS Encounter have been almost totally removed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nging-java-sea

[Commander Wallace]

Jace 11 had posted on this earlier in thread

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...34#post2446934

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37997640


Someone must know how this happened as a salvage operation like this could hardly go unnoticed.

Quote : In 1986 the UK Parliament passed the Protection of Military Remains Act to protect such wrecks, mainly as a result of divers disturbing such war graves.

According to International Law, the wrecks of ships which sank in international waters are the property of its country of origin.


The status of most of these wrecks in the international waters is not protected.



http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/sh...memorials.html

[August]

I'll bet the same fate has dealt to the HMAS Perth and the USS Houston which were sunk in the Battle of Sunda Strait in 1942.

[Oberon]

Someone must have seen something, you don't just drag up six large warships and a submarine from 70m down without there being a significant operation.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Someone must have seen something, you don't just drag up six large warships and a submarine from 70m down without there being a significant operation.

Rgr that and at the very least, the government of whoever is responsible must have known.

[HunterICX]

Theo Doorman, 82, son of legendary Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, who led the battle, was on the expedition which hoped to film the wrecks two weeks ago.
He said he could not believe his eyes when the sonar images came in, showing only a groove where his father's ship had been.
"I was sad," he said.
"Not angry. That doesn't get you anywhere. But sad. For centuries is was a custom not to disturb sailors' graves. But it did happen here."

Respect for the dead is hard to find where there's money involved.
Sadly it's really hard to protect these sites and I wish it wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

[Aktungbby]

Wall Street Journal: Oct. 13, 2016 6:39 a.m. ET

China’s exports of steel fell sharply for the second straight month in September, a downtrend that is likely to be welcomed by global rivals who have complained about a glut of supplies from the world’s largest producer of the metal.
Exports of steel from China tumbled 22% year-on-year during the month to 8.80 million tons, while imports of copper fell 26% on the year to 340,000 tons. Despite the blip, exports of steel products for the period January to September were still up 2.4% year-on-year.
Analysts say it may be too early to interpret the trend as a fundamental shift in supply and demand.
The dip in exports likely stemmed from temporary production shutdowns to clean up the environment ahead of international events such as the G-20 summit last month, as well as a domestic pick up in housing demand, analysts said. An environmental Potemkin village?
Imports of iron-ore ( from any source??!!) rose 8% during the month, maintaining a rising trend as domestic output of the steelmaking material slackened amid a lack of competitiveness against large international producers and an antipollution clampdown. Crude oil imports also rose to the highest level this year in September.
“Due to a number international expos and forums being held in China this year, temporary environmental restrictions on steel producers have resulted in some supply squeeze,” says Laura Zhai, director Asia-Pacific Corporates, Fitch Ratings. “Once these restrictions are lifted, supply will increase as most producers will be profitable under current prices.”
As China’s economy has slowed, its overcapacity has increasingly washed up on foreign shores. European and U.S. manufacturers have brought numerous complaints in recent years alleging that their Chinese competitors are exporting steel products at unfairly low prices.
World leaders agreed over the summer that overproduction of steel is a global problem and endorsed setting up an international body to monitor it.
China has responded by pledging to cut 100 million to 150 million tons of steel capacity over the next few years. But with China accounting for nearly 50% of global production, the capacity cut will remove only a third of its excess production. Nearly a quarter of China’s estimated annual steel capacity are excess.
China’s steel production fell by 2.3% to 804 million tons last year, which was the first drop since 1981—just five years after the death of communist leader Mao Zedong—in the world’s largest steel producer. The consensus among analysts was that steel production would fall again thus year by 2.5-5%, but in fact January-August production of around 537 million metric tons is practically flat year-on-year.
Chinese steel mills revived idled capacities as prices rallied through this year because of improved housing demand and government stimulus measures for infrastructure. But that demand has run into headwinds as several Chinese cities imposed measures to cool the market.
Few believe that the supply glut would melt away soon and sustain a steel price rally.
“We are unlikely to see a strong upturn in steel prices. There may be some weakness in steel price yet, especially if [the] residential construction sector slows down again,” says Rajiv Biswas, a Singapore-based IHS economist.

There it is: in a nut$hell !

[propbeanie]

It'd serve the perps right, if Davey Jones himself would demand payment for their souls, for the bones they've disturbed... Unfortunately, it'll probably be up to a foreign government that couldn't even find an airplane, and obfuscated their way around the issue...

[MGR1]

Not surprised - the Indonesians still have an axe to grind with the Dutch.

As far as the Houston and the Perth are concerned, the latter had been extensively salvaged the last time anyone looked. The Houston had suffered severe damage as well.

They're probaly both gone now.

There's even been some rumours that the salvagers have been at the Repulse and Prince of Wales too.

Sooner or later anything of value on the seabed in that area will be gone.

Mike.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by MGR1

Not surprised - the Indonesians still have an axe to grind with the Dutch.

No axe to grind just money, because they also dessacrated the graves of the aprox. 250 indonesian lives lost in that battle iirc.

[Platapus]

Probably the most researched and litigated decisions in civil law have dealt with who owns what and for how long for stuff at the bottom of the wet stuff.

Generations of maritime lawyers have and will continue to afford to buy expensive boats that float on top of the water by working cases of boats no longer floating.

The more familiar but more misunderstood term "Derelict" and the less known but critically important term "Lagan" are both legal terms that help decide who owns what and for how long.

What are the exact legal definitions of Derelict and Lagan? Well that's why maritime lawyers get rich.

Derelict are wrecks/cargo that the owner has claimed is irrecoverable and therefore, they give up any ownership rights and at the same time, avoid responsibility for recovery.

Lagan are wrecks/cargo that the owner has claimed is recoverable and therefor keep ownership rights but also assume the responsibility for recovery.

So depending on the value of the wreck/cargo, it may be in the owner's best interest to claim that the wreck is Lagan.

Although rare, if a sunken boat causes damage to something else (perhaps sunk in shallow waters), whether it is Derelict or Lagan is most important.

Let's not even get into what happens when something Derelict or Lagan becomes some Flotsam or Jetsam. That's when the lawyers start buying private jets.

What the owners really want is to keep their positive claims and avoid their negative responsibilities. They want to claim ownership, if found, but avoid responsibility if it is not. Fortunately, the law does not allow this.

Unfortunately, this means that many owners simply do not make any claims until the wreck is found.

The problem is that unless the owner is getting money from Insurance, often these wrecks and associated components/cargo are simply left undefined. This makes finding and salvaging more problematic.

Insurance companies also play fast and loose with maritime law (say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so!).

This is so problematic that some countries have established a "Receiver of Wreck" which is a government office that takes immediate legal custody (but not ownership) of any wreck and or associated cargo found in their jurisdiction. This Receiver of Wrecks then conducts a lengthy investigation on the who, when, how long, and the whats concerning ownership.

Generally speaking if the wreck/cargo is still owned, the finder can charge a "reasonable" (aka lawyers get very rich) recovery and salvage fee from the owner and the owner keeps the junk and then is responsible for disposing of it. If the wreck/cargo is not owned, then the finder is not eligible for any salvage fee but is, instead stuck with the junk to get rid of.

So if the wreck/cargo is not particularly valuable, the owner really does not want it found as they can end up losing a lot of money in the process. The insurance companies sure don't want anything found for the same reason.

The only people who are happy with this are the maritime lawyers.

Contrary to popular belief, it is in the best interest of the finders to find something that is already owned as they can more easily get an unreasonable (aka lawyers get very rich) salvage fee. With few exceptions, the stuff found in wrecks has limited commercial value. Unfortunately, historical, sentimental, and emotional value does not factor into the financial reimbursement.

Now if the wreck/cargo has a high commercial value, naturally everyone changes their opinion and the ownership right fights start (aka lawyers get very rich).

More than anyone wanted to know about this, I am sure.