[REL] Squid launcher

[LGN1]

Hi gap,

I was also hoping that there is only a single firing 'animation'

IIRC, the K-gun was always fired at the same moment as the other K-guns on the escort; no matter where it was positioned.

When testing the hedgehog parameters for the squid I also found out that the position of the launcher mattered: Depending on the distance of the launcher from the ship's center the projectiles were ahead or behind the target. My guess is that the game only takes the ship's position into account when firing/dropping DCs (and the u-boat's speed, but not the hedgehog firing range and the sinking speed).

Best, LGN1

[Jeff-Groves]

Have you tried the DC rack thing I suggested?
Don't think of it as the squid just try what I'm saying!
Let me know what the DC rack does if you place it 20 meters ahead of a ship!
I've worked 10 to 12 hours a day for 3 weeks straight now.
NO days off!
I'm helping with other Mods in my off time.
If you can't do this simple test? I guess I'll go no further with this.

[Anvar1061]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Have you tried the DC rack thing I suggested?
Don't think of it as the squid just try what I'm saying!
Let me know what the DC rack does if you place it 20 meters ahead of a ship!
I've worked 10 to 12 hours a day for 3 weeks straight now.
NO days off!
I'm helping with other Mods in my off time.
If you can't do this simple test? I guess I'll go no further with this.

[gap]

Hi Jeff,
I think LGN1 already answered that, during his tests, all the dc throwers fired their charges exactly at the same moment, no matter if they were placed in different positions within the ship model. This seem to entail that the K-gun controller is triggered based on ship's and U-boat relative positios, disregarding any other factor.
Nonetheless, I agree with you that at any rate a set of tests with some extreme figures could be instructve. If I got you corretly we should move thrower's linking nodes on a ship model forward by some hundred meters, and move the 3D meshes of the thrower back by the same quantity. This way thrower's physical position relative to the ship wouldn't change, but we would trick the AI into thinking that the weapon is much forward than it actually is. Is that correct?
I dont know if LGN1 has time for one last test. If not, I can try myself. I have no SHIII installed on my machine, but I can try on SH5. The controllers are the same, and I dont think their handling differs too much in the two games...

[Jeff-Groves]

Sorry about my little fit.
I had some very bad days and things got to me.
I'll be able to test myself in the next day or so.
I'm interested in WHY the DC racks node is placed so far forwards on a stock ship and the model so far back.
Now, IF that's to allow for the animations stuff?
We can take advantage of that.
Yes it would mean doing a bunch of animations and other stuff but it's pretty clear other options are out the window.
Your 3D model is to nice to just give up the whole idea!

[gap]

No problem mate,

let us know if you find anything interesting. If you or LGN1 dont get time for testing further on the DC topic, be sure I will. I don't know when, but I will, and I will start from the tweaks you have suggested

[Jeff-Groves]

Got an issue with my install.
Gonna have to wipe it and install a fresh version.
Got it on the back up external 1 TB drive.

Now.
IF the DC rack is located like it is to allow for the rack animations?
Then We can adjust for that.
New animations and effects would do exactly what is needed.
It all depends on how that DC works if we place it say 50 meters in front of the ship.
I tried last night but my install is corrupted and I CTD.
Go figure.
Not that I mess with my installs.
LOL

[VikingGrandad]

This mod looks utterly deadly!

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

...It all depends on how that DC works if we place it say 50 meters in front of the ship...

There are several unknown factors which might play a role.

If eqp node's position is taken into account by AI when firing the DC attached to it, then your idea should work.

If it doesn't, there still are chances that your trick does the job.

If, for instance ship center matters for DC fire control (as suggested by LGN1), we should ask ourselves how the AI calculates this center. Is it relative to ship meshes, or even dummy node/bones (such as the ones used for equipments) would matter, if they are placed outside the 3D model? If the latter was true, moving a node (any node) 50 m in front of the bow, would shift the ship center by 25 meter forward, thus moving the "aim" of DC fthrowers forward by the same amount.

There would be some drawbacks though, as all the DC throwers fitted on that ship would become forward throwing weapons. Not to mention collision avoidance and ship physics that might also go nuts.

...anyway I realize that there are too many "if" in my reasoning. Let's see what your tests have to tell us

[Alex]

I like you guy's creativity. Can't wait to see what you'll come up with.

[Jeff-Groves]

The animations part does work in some ways.
I know that from working on a special DC rack way back.
And I still have those files after all these years!

IF I recall right? moving a DC rack to the front of a ship does not effect the rear DC racks.

Reason I remember that is I was working on side mounted DC racks.

[the_frog]

I do not know if that may help but I did some side-rolling single DC racks for Alex's Harbour Defense Motor Launch (HDML) and an additional two-DC variant for the Bathursts. They work well as long as the parent ship does pass over the target submarine. The HDML is rather reluctant to do so; the Bathursts do easily.

The reason?

The Bathurst has a mass/displacement larger than 750 t (as defined in *.sim file). At a mass of less than 750 t the attacking vessel will not pass over the sub, probably because of some parameter in the collision avoidance routine or whatsoever.

My best guess to make the Squid work would be to use the K-gun controller (use 3 for one Squid, one for each of the Squid's barrels) and make the controller assume that the firing ship is passing over the sub 250 m ahead.
Could we achieve that by extentding the ship's binding box? Or is the K-gun firing linked to the position of the hydrophone/ASDIC node?

I do not have SH3 on the notebook I use while travelling, otherwise I would start tests.

[LGN1]

Hi all,

I have redone the test with the K-gun moved 60m ahead of the Flower escort. I couldn't observe any impact of its new position on its firing time

My feeling is that the game only takes the escort's position with respect to the u-boat for the DCs into account. The DC pattern (racks, throwers,...) always fire when the escort is exactly above the assumed u-boat position. That's when the attack sequence starts.

In contrast, for the hedgehog it seems to take also the u-boat's speed into account. Therefore, I think the hedgehog is a much better starting point for the squid. If one could reduce the hardcoded number of projectiles down to three...

Best, LGN1

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Sorry about my little fit.

No harm done, Jeff.

[Jeff-Groves]

Thanks Mate.
I'll get my SH3 install replaced so it runs again.
I have no clue why it crashes.
Not like I mess with stuff all the time.

[gap]

Originally Posted by the_frog

My best guess to make the Squid work would be to use the K-gun controller (use 3 for one Squid, one for each of the Squid's barrels)

Just one controller should be enough. IIRC the K-gun controller gets the number and position/orientation of the depth charges it fires from the barrel nodes of the model it is placed on...

Originally Posted by the_frog

...and make the controller assume that the firing ship is passing over the sub 250 m ahead.
Could we achieve that by extentding the ship's binding box?

There is a number of ways this could be possibly achieved, but we should then face the problems I mentioned in previous post

Originally Posted by the_frog

...Or is the K-gun firing linked to the position of the hydrophone/ASDIC node?

This is actually an interesting idea that, AFAIK, has not been tested so far. But again, if it worked, the traditional DC rails/throwers also fitted on Castle-class corvettes and Loch-class frigates, would turn useless.

Originally Posted by LGN1

My feeling is that the game only takes the escort's position with respect to the u-boat for the DCs into account. The DC pattern (racks, throwers,...) always fire when the escort is exactly above the assumed u-boat position. That's when the attack sequence starts.

In contrast, for the hedgehog it seems to take also the u-boat's speed into account. Therefore, I think the hedgehog is a much better starting point for the squid. If one could reduce the hardcoded number of projectiles down to three...

I suppose that making the number of hedgehogs customizable would have been an easy feature to implement by devs, if only they didn't decide to over-simplify that controller