Mod Sanity

I check in here every day and I have to say the work going on here is first rate!

I do however have one problem, I just cannot keep up with all the mods. Every night over the last two weeks i've been downloading mods, installing them, resolving conflicts, reinstalling them etc. This is why I loved the Grey Wolves and the NYGM Tonnage Mods, all inclusive and easy to install.

Recently though, its become a little chaotic again, I think this has been highlighted by the number posts in the vein:

Q: "does this mod work with v1.1 of NYGM flushing toilet mod ?"
A: "yes but you'll have to sacrifice the snoring captain mod and modify your snitzer valve settings in the googlybox.cfg file."

Therefore, is it possible to have a lockable "stickie" where GreyWolf and NYGM etc project managers (mod reps if you will) can keep the forum posted on their respective supermod progress, compatibilities, known errors etc. I know there are a number of "official threads" for these mods but everyone can post to them such that information is quickly drowned in a sea of afore mentioned posts.

Failing this, perhapps a simple Super Mod progress webpage would suffice.

Just planting seeds...feel free to shout me down.

Cheers....

[Boris]

Even better, a single FAQ post with everything on it...

It's always a lot of hassle to sift through multiple posts and pages

[Salvadoreno]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: "snoring captian mod" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

dude that cracked me up. But i have just given up and i use the NYGM TW war mod with some graphical fixes along with other mods that dont conflict. I tried merging NYGM and GW using extended unified campaign and other crap, but it just resulted in crashes and problems. The next major mod im going to download is a merged NYGM+GW with some graphic mods, the Kreigsmarine mod, and SH3 commander (completed with sabotage and malfunction mods). Ill be a happy guy with that, but until then i ignore the other somewhat useless mods that come out. they arent for me

[blizzard_beast]

It's especially confusing to someone who just got SHIII, I've got what, a years catching up to do!? :rotfl:

The next major mod im going to download is a merged NYGM+GW with some graphic mods, the Kreigsmarine mod, and SH3 commander (completed with sabotage and malfunction mods).

I would be one big happy bunny with that mod, in fact I was trying to recreate the very same but info on how to merge them seems to be very confusing....that or i'm just really stupid.

My money is on the latter

[JScones]

Believe me you are not alone. Between the "Why doesn't this mod work" and "How do I install/uninstall..." and "Bloody SH3Cmdr has demagnetised my fridge magnets again" posts, I've lost focus and indeed as a result interest.

I want a GW + NYGM TW + RUb combination, but I don't want to go through the "fix for this, tweak for that, undo for the other" torture to get there. Damn it, *I* want to be spoon fed for a change!!!!!

But I do agree that something needs to be done. Although even if we had a sticky in big bright bold red letters titled "WHAT MODS *YOU* REALLY SHOULD GET" the forum would still be chokkas with "What mods should I get?" topics.

Even a FAQ is somewhat useless - SH3Cmdr has one, but it doesn't stop the same questions being asked.

Just human nature I guess...

[Stiebler]

It's easy to sympathise with those who want just one or two mods for convenience. The difficulty is that there are so many divergent views on what constitutes an improvement, resulting in a proliferation of mods. A trivial example is the number of mods replacing the officers' icons at the bottom left of the SH3 screen. All perfectly worthy, but who is to say which is best?

A much more serious problem is exemplified by Rubini's Harbour Traffic mod and the Unified Campaign Files. It is obvious from posts in this forum that many people think that HT is wonderful, and want it in every campaign file. Others think that to take 10 minutes to get out of harbour, owing to the slowed frame rate, is too high a price to pay. How can these views be reconciled? The obvious solution is to make HT available only as an overlay for those who want it, but then Rubini has the serious practical problem of making overlays for every new release of a campaign file. Meanwhile, lots of users will be complaining that they can't get the overlay to work.

There really appears to be no good solution - unless people think that the organisers of the major mods should have a veto on which new mods can be released. I doubt if that would be very popular either. It certainly is not practical for the main organisers to keep up with every release of every mod and say whether or not they work with (for example) NYGM.

One really requires a good, but fairly simple, base on which to build. I personally think that Grey Wolves has made a mistake in adding uncritically every conceivable mod to itself, which must make it much harder for users to make changes. NYGM's leaner base is (I think) a much better platform for those who want to customise SH3. It provides better realism, too.

Stiebler.

[Anvart]

It completely agree with Stiebler.

Anvart :hmm:

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Stiebler

It's easy to sympathise with those who want just one or two mods for convenience. The difficulty is that there are so many divergent views on what constitutes an improvement, resulting in a proliferation of mods. A trivial example is the number of mods replacing the officers' icons at the bottom left of the SH3 screen. All perfectly worthy, but who is to say which is best?

A much more serious problem is exemplified by Rubini's Harbour Traffic mod and the Unified Campaign Files. It is obvious from posts in this forum that many people think that HT is wonderful, and want it in every campaign file. Others think that to take 10 minutes to get out of harbour, owing to the slowed frame rate, is too high a price to pay. How can these views be reconciled? The obvious solution is to make HT available only as an overlay for those who want it, but then Rubini has the serious practical problem of making overlays for every new release of a campaign file. Meanwhile, lots of users will be complaining that they can't get the overlay to work.

There really appears to be no good solution - unless people think that the organisers of the major mods should have a veto on which new mods can be released. I doubt if that would be very popular either. It certainly is not practical for the main organisers to keep up with every release of every mod and say whether or not they work with (for example) NYGM.

One really requires a good, but fairly simple, base on which to build. I personally think that Grey Wolves has made a mistake in adding uncritically every conceivable mod to itself, which must make it much harder for users to make changes. NYGM's leaner base is (I think) a much better platform for those who want to customise SH3. It provides better realism, too.

Stiebler.

Stiebler,

Although I agree in your first three paragraphs, I'm afraid I'm a little bit confused in your last paragraph. Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

[JScones]

I love GW, don't get me wrong. And I'm sure some day I will love GW+NYGM even more.

BUT, I think that GW got some (not all) things around the wrong way. It included the huge seafloor textures by default, but provided the default SH3 files as an overlay. It should have been the other way around, and selectable as part of the installation. Likewise the grey contacts.

There's a fine balance, and indeed a "boundary" with releasing large scale mods. Some mods are specifically marketed to a defined segment (ie NYGM and RUb) and RUb particularly makes no apologies about that (and nor should it). Whereas GW is (even marketed as?) more mainstream and "accessible" to all levels of players. Including by default grey contacts, or the huge sea floor textures, or a set atmosphere mod challenges the boundaries of some "middle of the road" players. The end result of course being "how do I get rid of X", followed closely by "here's a mod which replaces GW's X with the stock X". A very redundant approach.

Essentially, my view is that GW should include by default all "bug" fixes, corrections, new additions (like ships and the like) and mods which have become the accepted standard (like decks awash). Anything that can be considered debatable (the test being "how would a newbie react to this" compared to "how would a realism freak react to this") should be optional with either nothing included by default, or a mix of the two extremes (Syxx_Killer's Ship ID compromise is a perfect example). Also in this category would be a reduced HT (50% of the difference between stock and full HT) mod by default with options to go all or none. Not in this category would be any realism tweaks that *reduce* the difficulty of the stock game - they go in by default (like RUb's changes to the promotion renown values, more realistic promotions which are quicker than stock). Such changes appeal to both ends of the spectrum albeit for different reasons.

Then, there'd be no more need to re-package and release as mods stock game files (and I still can't believe we do this).

This is where I think...<shudder>"U-Boat: Battle in the Mediterranean" has got it right. Look at its (default) enhancements. Nicely rounded for all levels of players and with nothing overly "surprising" for someone that doesn't read the readme file.

As you know VonHelsching, we've discussed this exact subject elsewhere.

Now, having said that, I'm not a big fan of the "lean" approach either. It just sparks the "does X work with NYGM", "what mods are compatible with NYGM" and so on. A lot of players, me included and I like to think that I can work my way around SH3's data files, just want a one-stop-shop. Even if it is a basic installation with extra selectable options that *I* can choose.

I have a dream...

This is interesting debate (and god I hope it stays that way :-)

It seems to me that mods (excluding utilities) fall into two classifications, namely:

1) Graphical (visual enhancements)
2) Realism (game engine enhancements)

Furthermore, these two classes can be subdivided into the following categories:

i) Accepted improvements to the stock game
ii) Debated improvements to the stock game

I'm hoping that this debate might help us pool our heads to find some standard for mod development and release which is obviously required. This will be difficult because some mods rely on "file replacement" rather than "file editing", such that two seperate mods may clash if they replace the same stock file.

But if the mod community could converge on an accepted stock improvement mod then that would be a first step. Then debated improvement mods could be released as overlays to this.

If a few of the guys here could also work on building a modding framework for all modders to use then I think we will start making good progress.


I also notice that mod camps have developed over time....my first mod camp was RuB which was ground breaking in its day. I then moved to NYGM and now use Extended Unified GW and NYGM (even though i'm still not fully sure what that means).

My point though is that I joined these camps, so to speak, based on the postings of others. I soon learnt that SH3Commander and JSGME were cool tools (both of which might yet still lead us out of the mod quagmire), likewise by reading these forums I learnt that RuB was worth downloading and installing.

If posters could list the core mods they use then newbies, once joinging a particular camp, need only download and install the listed mods.

These are just ideas but I really do think it would be worth devoting some energy to stopping the mods taking over the world...sorry, I mean my precious SHII play time

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by JScones

As you know VonHelsching, we've discussed this exact subject elsewhere.

We certainly did, Stanley

Certainly there were some mini-mistakes like the seafloor, but hey; people are doing this in their free time. But that's why I say thank you for SH3Crd and thank them for GW

But, you know, a lot of compromises must be made in order to (critically -I would rather say-) gather all those mods and unite them in a working package.

Some users might say I want X instead of Y, but that's what providing options is all about (and future patches too).

IUB, GW and NYGM were a success story without doubt. Look at how many new and returning players are posting in the forums.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Certainly there were some mini-mistakes like the seafloor, but hey; people are doing this in their free time. But that's why I say thank you for SH3Crd and thank them for GW

Yes. One must not forget that overall these mistakes were minor and (somewhat) easily rectified. Although, I think that the one thing about GW that has sparked the most confusion and hence questions, has been the installation of it!

Personally, I felt that the installation detracted from an otherwise very professional product. It took some of the focus away from the great work because...well...people couldn't get to see the great work! We've discussed this, acknowledged it...but it's gone nowhere.

Anyway, my comments are reflection as opposed to criticism. Just something to ponder along with all the questions raised by GW users. Arguably, with a few extra inclusions, GW could be considered the first real free "unofficial expansion pack". But with that label comes a step up in marketing and packaging. But the ship is being well guided and I'm sure Kpt Lehmann has everything under control.

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

IUB, GW and NYGM were a success story without doubt. Look at how many new and returning players are posting in the forums.

Let's not forget RUb either - I think it was essentially the first "super mod" and has been the foundation for many subsequent mods, both large and small (including IUB). I actually run a GW/RUb amalgam.

[malcymalc]

I am enjoying this discussion very much (and i am glad to see it has not turned "flaming" yet).

I currently run with just SH3Cmdr + JSGME and NYGM.

To be honest I would probably load more things on as well but I had real problems getting NYGM on (TeddyBar was a first rate help tho') and so I am reluctant to mess around with the GW UC mod.

I am also finding that some mods which worked fine before (I liked the map with convoy routes shown, for instance) do not load with JSGME now (I see them available, move them across in the normal way but no change in the game).

Likewise some of the new ships being turned out are not showing up in the Ship Recognition Manual or Library even though JSGME says they have been loaded.

I am sure this is my stupidity rather than a fault in any of the programming - but I guess I am example of how a mod needs to be idiot proof to reach the largest possible audience.

Frankly I do not want to go into individual files making adjustments, and I am sure there are many others out there who feel much the same way to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their confidence.

Malcolm

[Stiebler]

Von Helsching said:

Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made.

What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.

Stiebler.