Who Started World War II?

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Orders from superiors ??
Like hitler

I can see I'm losing you, so I digress.
Anyone else care to tackle my question?

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

yes, saying the Nazis are responsible for WW2 is a bit like saying that the Americans were responsible for the American Revolution because they started the fighting.

The root causes of WW2 can easily be traced back to the Treaty of Versailles which was imposed by Britain and France on Germany, carving up German territory and imposing punitive reparation payments.

This had the twin effect of weakening the Weimar republic/German democracy from the start since they had agreed to the Treaty and weakening the German economy since vast amounts of wealth had to be transferred from Germany to Britain/France to pay them.

In addition, Germany was obliged to borrow large sums from the U.S. simply to pay the reparation payments to Britain/France. This had the additional effect that when the depression hit and U.S. loans stopped, the German economy collapsed. Germany was the european country hardest hit by the depression with 6 million unemployed.

All these factors allowed the Nazis to take power in Germany which led to WW2.

If the Versailles treaty had been more fair, more along the line of Wilson's 14 points and if the Weimar Republic had been supported, the Nazis do not come to power and WW2 does not happen.

...so yes, Britain and France are responsible for WW2...

p.s. - As I have stated previously, one of the best books to understand WW2 is "The Wages of Destruction" by Tooze. He goes into the pre-war economic forces in much more detail then I ever could. Highly recommended reading.

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Wages-Destr.../dp/0143113208

Finally, a breath of fresh air. I think we are finally getting somewhere.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

What International law?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

And under what authority is that law enforced?

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Oberon

"Democracy" seems to have done alright for itself over the past seventy years, and I'd hardly call what NASDAP Germany had a "Democracy".

I don't think you understood my statement, and I have no idea how old you are. I didn't imply that Nazi Germany was a democracy, far from it.
I know I'm dating myself but I've been around since the Eisenhower administration and lived through the "Cold War" and witnessed all the murders of millions in the "workers' paradises".

And then the Coup d'etat that murdered Jack Kennedy took place and we went over the precipice.

[Jimbuna]

Having discussed matters with Neal and Steve we have come to the joint decision I should take over the role of moderation here, not in order to undermine Steve but more in releasing him from the constraints moderation brings and allowing him to join in the debate and give his views.

I hope we can all agree on the following points:

1) This topic is about who started WWII and nothing else.
2) Talk of the holocaust is verboten and will not be tolerated.
3) Sufficient pleas for common sense and civility have been made and no further warnings will be forthcoming.

Trust me when I say I understand how emotive a topic like this can be but if we all remain mindful of the three points above and treat each other with a level of understanding and consideration this thread could well turn into one of great interest to many in our community.

I thank you all in advance for your co-operation.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn : "Really, do you think that war was a solution to solve the problem between Germany and Poland ?"

Germany seemed to think so.

I mean war against Germany of course.

By the way : How is it possible to multi-quote a message (the function seems to be broken, I have to add my original message manually)

[Bilge_Rat]

Dealing with the Polish corridor, again you have to look to the Treaty of Versailles. There was really no precedent for carving out territory which had been part of Prussia/Germany for 150 years.

Even the Weimar republic refused to recognize the eastern frontier:

The creation of the corridor aroused great resentment in Germany, and all post-war German Weimar governments refused to recognize the eastern borders agreed at Versailles, and refused to follow Germany's acknowledgment of its western borders in the Treaty of Locarno of 1925 with a similar declaration with respect to its eastern borders.[64]

The Polish government also did not help by adopting blatant anti-german policies:

In 1925 the Polish government enacted a land reform program with the aim of expropriating landowners.[76] While only 39% of the agricultural land in the Corridor was owned by Germans,[76] the first annual list of properties to be reformed included 10,800 hectares from 32 German landowners and 950 hectares from seven Poles.[76

which led to an exodus of German refugees back to Germany proper:

According to Wolff, 800,000 Germans had left Poland by 1923,[64] according to Gotthold Rhode, 575,000 left the former province of Posen and the corridor after the war,[65] according to Herrmann Rauschning, 800,000 Germans had left between 1918 and 1926,[65] contemporary author Alfons Krysinski estimated 800,000 plus 100,000 from East Upper Silesia,[65] the contemporary German statistics say 592,000 Germans had left by 1921,[65] other Polish scholars say that up to a million Germans left.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...of_World_War_I

as many scholars have pointed out before, the Treaty of Versailles did not secure "peace in our time", it only sowed the seeds to an even bigger conflict.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Joefour

I don't think you understood my statement, and I have no idea how old you are. I didn't imply that Nazi Germany was a democracy, far from it.
I know I'm dating myself but I've been around since the Eisenhower administration and lived through the "Cold War" and witnessed all the murders of millions in the "workers' paradises".

And then the Coup d'etat that murdered Jack Kennedy took place and we went over the precipice.

Never claimed that the 'Workers paradise' was a force for good, but do you honestly think that we should have sided with Hitler against the Soviet Union in the 1930s?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I hope we can all agree on the following points:

1) This topic is about who started WWII and nothing else.
2) Talk of the holocaust is verboten and will not be tolerated.
3) Sufficient pleas for common sense and civility have been made and no further warnings will be forthcoming.

Trust me when I say I understand how emotive a topic like this can be but if we all remain mindful of the three points above and treat each other with a level of understanding and consideration this thread could well turn into one of great interest to many in our community.

I thank you all in advance for your co-operation.

Full respect for you, Jimbuna !

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Do you honestly think that we should have sided with Hitler against the Soviet Union in the 1930s?

Yes, I think so. USSR was planning to invade Europe. But this is one more time another debate !

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Yes, I think so. USSR was planning to invade Europe. But this is one more time another debate !

Not that old one..."icebreaker"

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n6p22_Bishop.html

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

And under what authority is that law enforced?

This is the international law that made consensus at the time.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by STEED

Not that old one..."icebreaker".

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n6p22_Bishop.html

I don't remember exactly, but I read an article saying that recent discoveries in soviet archives prove this fact. I have to found it. But this is not my priority for today.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Dealing with the Polish corridor, again you have to look to the Treaty of Versailles. There was really no precedent for carving out territory which had been part of Prussia/Germany for 150 years.

It would be as if : in order to give Switzerland an access to the sea, we would have cut France in two parts by a Swiss corridor. What French could have accepted that ?