Heaven's Gate - your thoughts?

[Von Tonner]

I watched a movie few nights back called “Heaven’s Gate”. It’s an American western produced in 1980 and is based very, very loosely on the Johnson County War. Aka, “War on Powder River”; and “Wyoming Range War” of 1892

I goggled it as the ending was unclear to me.

Could not believe what I came up with regarding this film’s history. Here is a short synopsis.

1) It is claimed as the biggest box office bomb in the film industry
2) Is considered to be the worst film ever made
3) It has one of the biggest budget over runs coming in at $44 million at the time. At today’s costing that would be around $130 odd million
4) Its initial budget was $11.6 million
5) Against this expenditure it brought in only $3 million domestically, before it was pulled off the circuit after only one week
6) It brought about the early demise of its studio “United Artists”
7) It lead to the shift of studios taking over tighter control of budgets, with lesser budgetary powers given to directors.
8) It destroyed the career of its director Michael Cimino of “Deer Hunter” fame
9) Cimino shot more than 1.3 million feet of footage – that is 220 hours
10) He wanted the final cut to be close to 6 hours!!!!!
11) It eventually premiered at 3 hours and 39 minutes
12) Compare this to ‘Apocalypse Now’ at 1 million feet in footage shot
13) Actor John Hunt spent so much time doing nothing on set he went and made the ‘The Elephant Man’ in the interim.
14) Cimino was fanatical regarding detail. “A street built to his precise specifications had to be torn down and rebuilt because it reportedly "didn't look right'. The street in question needed to be six feet wider; the set construction boss said it would be cheaper to tear down one side and move it back six feet, but Cimino insisted that both sides be dismantled and moved back three feet, then reassembled”
15) He held up one shoot for hours on end waiting for a cloud formation that took his fancy to come into frame
16) “It is believed that the film was largely responsible for sparking the now common use of the "No animals were harmed ..." disclaimer “ because of the cruelty to animals that happened on set

Joe Queenan, film crit for the London Guardian wrote in 2008 that it was the worst film made up to that time:
“This is a movie that destroyed the director's career,” he wrote. “This is a movie that lost so much money it literally drove a major American studio out of business. This is a movie about Harvard-educated gunslingers who face off against eastern European sodbusters in an epic struggle for the soul of America. This is a movie that stars Isabelle Huppert as a shotgun-toting cowgirl. This is a movie in which Jeff Bridges pukes while mounted on roller skates. This is a movie that has five minutes of uninterrupted fiddle-playing by a fiddler who is also mounted on roller skates. This is a movie that defies belief.”

Interestingly enough though, a re-edited 2012 release won raves from critics, proving that there might have been something there after all. Some, even going so far as to call it a masterpiece.

And the funny thing is – or not so funny – I really enjoyed it.

If you have seen it what did you think of it?

[Dread Knot]

To muddy the waters further, 17 years later a cult with the same name as this film commits mass suicide in an upscale San Diego mansion in order to reach an alien spacecraft they believed was tailing the comet Hale-Bopp. But then who knows? Maybe the mass suicide was a result of screening Heaven's Gate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven'...eligious_group

So, yeah this movie seems to have been "star-crossed" in more ways than one.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

To muddy the waters further, 17 years later a cult with the same name as this film commits mass suicide in an upscale San Diego mansion in order to reach an alien spacecraft they believed was tailing the comet Hale-Bopp. But then who knows? Maybe the mass suicide was a result of screening Heaven's Gate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven'...eligious_group

So, yeah this movie seems to have been "star-crossed" in more ways than one.

First thing that came to mind when I read the title of the thread, never even heard of the film.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Oberon

First thing that came to mind when I read the title of the thread, never even heard of the film.

I've never seen it either, but it's reputation proceeds it. I've heard about half the budget must have been spent on dust as it pretty much permeates every set and costume in the move. Apparently just in terms of color and apperance, it's one of the dingiest, dullest films ever.

[Bilge_Rat]

I saw it years ago, I have seen worse, I have seen better. I thought it was a pretty decent movie overall. A lot of its bad reputation IMHO was tied in to Hollywood power plays back then, there seems to have been a lot of jealousy about Cimino after "The Deer Hunter" won the Oscar.

You have a lot of movies which are declared instant failures, but later turn out to be classics, i.e.:

"Citizen Kane":

Despite all the publicity, the film was a box-office flop and was quickly consigned to the RKO vaults. At 1941's Academy Awards the film was booed every time one of its nine nominations was announced. It was only re-released to the public in the mid-'50s.

The American Film Institute's poll ranked the film #1 on its list of greatest American movies of all time in 1998, and again on the anniversary list from 2007.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033467/...ef_=tt_trv_trv

"Vertigo":

Alfred Hitchcock was embittered at the critical and commercial failure of the film in 1958. He blamed this on James Stewart for "looking too old" to attract audiences any more. Hitchcock never worked with Stewart, previously one of his favorite collaborators, again.

In 2012, Vertigo replaced Citizen Kane (1941) in the Sight & Sound critics' poll as the greatest film of all time.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052357/...ef_=tt_trv_trv

One film I consider an undiscovered classic and IMHO, one of the best westerns ever made is:

"The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford":

[Jimbuna]

I remember that film but honestly didn't think it was any better than your average western.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I saw it years ago, I have seen worse, I have seen better. I thought it was a pretty decent movie overall.

My view exactly. From a point of film craftsmanship, it was done solid, but considering the effort put into it and the money it costed, it was somewhat surprising that the film nevertheless did not really connect with me. It entered my awareness while it lasted, and when it ended, it exited my awareness again, and that was it. No echo, no after-film reflection. That is a bit too less for a film of these proportions.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by Skybird

My view exactly. From a point of film craftsmanship, it was done solid, but considering the effort put into it and the money it costed, it was somewhat surprising that the film nevertheless did not really connect with me. It entered my awareness while it lasted, and when it ended, it exited my awareness again, and that was it. No echo, no after-film reflection. That is a bit too less for a film of these proportions.

Could not have put it better Skybird. That is why I googled it to try and get understanding on its ending. The dots just do not connect in the film or its message.
I get that it addresses foreigners - and the resistance of locals to different cultures and the threat that that brings. In my opinion, it treated this extremely shallowly.

And look where we are today. Against the plot of the film I would argue today there is no country like the USA where others are not battling to get in. What other country holds lotteries on attaining citizenship.

[TorpX]

Heaven's Gate - your thoughts?

I've heard that it was a "huge bomb", but didn't really know the details. I think "huge bomb" is Hollywood speak for "we lost money".

When I saw it, I thought it was a good, but not great, movie. I remember TV critics saying one should see the full length version, as the 2-hour edits are hacked to pieces.

I can see why those who dislike westerns, or can't stand to sit through a 4 hour movie would hate it. Considering the expense, I can see why the studio might feel the same way.

[Rhodes]

Never heard or see it. I might now, just to see what all about.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

One film I consider an undiscovered classic and IMHO, one of the best westerns ever made is:

"The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford":

I vouch for this. Absolutely awesome movie.

It's a movie you (can) watch again...and again...and again.
Great cast, great acting. Beautiful camera work, scenes.
Complete package.

EDIT: This also is a hidden gem:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0821638/

Also an absolute must-see!!

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

5)
And the funny thing is – or not so funny – I really enjoyed it.

If you have seen it what did you think of it?

Me too! just to see Isabelle Huppert whom I adore and I don't know why! "The cruel irony is United Artists’ parent company at the time was Transamerica, a multibillion-dollar insurance company, and it only took them a few days to recoup the $44 million they lost on Heaven’s Gate. (And plenty of other movies in the last 30 years have lost more money, even when adjusting for inflation: Cutthroat Island, Mars Needs Moms, Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, and the aforementioned The Lone Ranger all burned through way more cash—studios these days are simply doing a much better job of spreading around the risk.) The real damage came not from the film’s price tag, but rather from all the negative press this movie generated, which prompted Transamerica to sell UA to MGM, and UA subsequently ceased to exist." I'll probably see the new version too. My take: all the directors were doing movies this way. Cimino simply took the rap and fall for worst- Except for cinematography and overlong drawn out scenes...a solid 'B-' oater and possibly now... "a restored classic"? http://www.agonybooth.com/movies/Heavens_Gate_1980.aspx There are several editions of Heaven's Gate: Hollywood runs on profit so I suspect eventually it will recoupe it's outlay!? Here are Hollywood's worst Money losers. http://business.time.com/2012/03/21/the-top-ten-biggest-money-losing-movies-of-all-time/slide/speed-racer/ Hey!! I loved the Thirteenth Warrior!

[Bilge_Rat]

speaking of Bombs, let's not forget "Ishtar":

The film's budget was $55 million; it bombed at the box office, making only $12.7 million, a loss of over $42 million.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093278/...ef_=tt_trv_trv

You also have movies that Bomb when they come out and later become CULTURAL ICONS!...

To think this is all about a strange movie that bombed when it came out in 1998. But in the 10 years since its woeful release, The Big Lebowski – a tangled Desert Storm-era comedic caper directed by Ethan and Joel Coen (Fargo, Raising Arizona, No Country for Old Men) – has become the most beloved movie of its generation.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/n...-dude-20080904



..my favorite scene...

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

You also have movies that Bomb when they come out and later become CULTURAL ICONS!...



http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/n...-dude-20080904

The dude can't bomb, he's too busy abiding.

[Garion]

I personally think that Heavens Gate is a Great film, I like the grainy textures in the roller skating scenes.

Cheers

Gary