Kalashnikov RIP

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Sounds like fun...

I really love shooting AK's. They're great rifles on and off the battlefield IMHO.

The Russian army had huge stockpiles of AK's that would have armed the reserves in case of a general mobilization. But in 2011 the weapons failed to pass Russian army's qualification tests, quoting its poor aim and the change in the kind of warfare to be expected. No longer is it about huge masses of enemies that are to be mowed down in epic land battles, but precision against small forces that move agile and quickly, and about individual targets. The weapon, says the Russian army, no longer meets the needs of the to-be-expected armed conflicts of the forseeable future. Who am I to challenge the Russians over their own assessment of their own national idol.

Kalashnikov himself had doubts about his life's work record when he became older. He was aware that his invention had become the killing tool of choice of terrorists, ruthless general in civil wars that sent child soldiers into battle, and today I read in Der Tagesspiegel that in a TV documentation from around the year 2000 he voiced worries about his fate in afterlife, fearing to suffer hellfire for what he had done. It seems he was a man of religious belief. And clearly he knew what the invention of the AK47 has meant and caused in the world.

Iconic the weapon is - but iconic for many sides and many users with questionable reputation. It seems as a man of higher age he did not get over his role in this "achievement".

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Sounds like fun...

I really love shooting AK's. They're great rifles on and off the battlefield IMHO.

You know, as much as a gun nut people here probably think I am now, I have never held a kalashnikov of any sort in my hands. I don't even think i've asked to see them at gun shops. Hell, I had a gold membership to a local range where I had access to check out rental's for free anytime i wanted as part of that membership , class 3 full auto AK's, and never bothered to check one out.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Kalashnikov himself had doubts about his life's work record when he became older. He was aware that his invention had become the killing tool of choice of terrorists, ruthless general in civil wars that sent child soldiers into battle, and today I read in Der Tagesspiegel that in a TV documentation from around the year 2000 he voiced worries about his fate in afterlife, fearing to suffer hellfire for what he had done. It seems he was a man of religious belief. And clearly he knew what the invention of the AK47 has meant and caused in the world.

Iconic the weapon is - but iconic for many sides and many users with questionable reputation. It seems as a man of higher age he did not get over his role in this "achievement".

I think i caught similar impressions elsewhere. Maybe in the 45 minute documentary i linked earlier, maybe elsewhere, i dunno, i watch/listen to a lot of documentaries. But on this subject, a quote by a fellow named Jeff Cooper comes to mind:

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know, as much as a gun nut people here probably think I am now, I have never held a kalashnikov of any sort in my hands. I don't even think i've asked to see them at gun shops.

me neither

[MH]

RIP AK
Great rifle in its time but out dated today and also a bit over glorified .

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by MH

RIP AK
Great rifle in its time but out dated today and also a bit over glorified .

Not when you are on the receiving end and they will be around for some time after they are no longer effective for a modern military.In some parts of the world the jump was from muzzle loaders to the AK for these folks one design is suitable for a few generations.

All though bullet wounds are a less common form of causality for a counter insurgency force make no mistake that the AK47 is still doing what it was designed to do just fine.

Many other firearms receive their fair of veneration in most cases that veneration is earned that does not a firearm the ultimate weapon but tell me how many people ever heard of the Chachat?

One thing many over look the AK47 was that it had been in production since 1949 and did not see a major conflict until the early 60's in that roughly 14 years it had been improved several times and in fact the original design had already been replaced in Soviet service by the AKM.The Type 56 which is what the majority of AK type rifles used by the NVA and VC was the Chinese version of the AKM so it was of course a design based on 14 years of experience and bug correcting. The M16 on the other had was first designed in 1956/57 as the AR15 and first entered service as a military rifle in 1963.It had a very poorly performed testing process and the Army changed the powered type to one that greatly increased the amount of residue build up not to mention the fact that none of the parts where chromed.So no wonder the AK47 was better performer in the hands of conscript troops.

If anything the AK vs M16 argument simply proves the blind engineering over confidence that existed in the US at the time period (lets face it every nation has this pride to some extent).They thought that they could make a better weapon that had already been in development for over a decade in a matter of years.In the end at the peak of their respective designs both rifles are good kit so long as they are properly treated and used where their specific strengths are best.

So I can understand the veneration that the AK receives I also know that anyone who says that they never jam and never misfire is a liar or has not fired one more than just casually every firearm has malfuctions from time to time even the most cared for.Stovepipe for example a person who has never had that happen with a firearm is a hardcore layman the one who makes the malfunction free claim you can be rest assure does not know what a stovepipe is.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Not when you are on the receiving end and they will be around for some time after they are no longer effective for a modern military.In some parts of the world the jump was from muzzle loaders to the AK for these folks one design is suitable for a few generations.

Have you ever been on receiving end of anything?
Sure you dont.
You dont want to be on the receiving end of a bow....not that i compare AK to bow as a pun.
Yes AK will stay for a long time , yet not with modern armed forces.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Not when you are on the receiving end and they will be around for some time after they are no longer effective for a modern military.

Oh yes. If wikipedia is accurate, the AK-47 alone, has had 75 million produced. Compare that to the Mosin-Nagant 37 million produced. The Mosin has been so plentiful in supply, as to be one of the cheapest bolt guns you can buy that fires a full sized cartridge. It's usually priced in todays market at about 160 to 200 dollars depending on condition. So comparatively, Kalashnikov's must be falling out of trees.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by MH

RIP AK
Great rifle in its time but out dated today and also a bit over glorified .

I must point out that the age of a firearm does not dictate obsolescence. For example some would say that 1911 handgun (you know, the handgun that has been around since before WW1) is obsolete, but how now the on a limited basis. Or the Browning M2 machine gun. Designed in 1933, and has never left service. Both of these examples predate any kalashnikov rifle.

So i would submit that while the AK may not be "all that and a bag of chips", and it may not be the best selective fire rifle in an intermediate cartridge, it does what it was designed to do well enough.

[MH]

I must point out that the age of a firearm does not dictate obsolescence.

Its not about the age.
Its about its design which does not work and its not flexible enough to adapt it to the requirement of modern armed forced.

AK nowadays has no real advantage besides being reliable and cheap which is good thing but not enough anymore.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by MH

Its not about the age.
Its about its design which does not work and its not flexible enough to adapt it to the requirement of modern armed forced.

AK nowadays has no real advantage besides being reliable and cheap which is good thing but not enough anymore.

Do you have any supportive points for your assertion? Picitianny rails don't count. It's not hard to change furniture and put all the tacticool toys on just about anything.

If one was to a general look at the criteria for Assault rifles:
- selective fire
- intermediate cartridge
- engagement of targets at a maximum range of 200 to 300 yards.

While an AK may not be as accurate as other rifles, I do think it is accurate enough for the role intended, and will kill you just the same as anything in the M16 family of rifles. Although if your argument is beyond platform's and is more about the role of the intermediate cartridge itself, that is something entirely different.

[Oberon]

Of all the weapons in the vast Soviet arsenal nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947, more commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle, a weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple nine pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood, it doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It will shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy even a child can use it, and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin, Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure; no one was lining up to buy their cars.

[MH]

Do you have any supportive points for your assertion? Picitianny rails don't count. It's not hard to change furniture and put all the tacticool toys on just about anything.

True but maintaining them zeroed in in extreme conditions is a different story....
Try to use Ak,s side rail with an adapter to which you attach whatever you need in the field.
In particular when in need run or throw your self with the gun to the ground rocks or what ever...
Besides the issue that it gets stuck in your uniform or gear.
Actually this gun becomes very awkward with addons .
Ergonomy ,lightweight ease of use or acquiring target gives edge in combat...besides training and so on.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

RIP sir.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Oh yes. If wikipedia is accurate, the AK-47 alone, has had 75 million produced. Compare that to the Mosin-Nagant 37 million produced. The Mosin has been so plentiful in supply, as to be one of the cheapest bolt guns you can buy that fires a full sized cartridge. It's usually priced in todays market at about 160 to 200 dollars depending on condition. So comparatively, Kalashnikov's must be falling out of trees.

Just as curiosity. I visited Infantry Museum in Mikkeli around 2006-2007 and accordign to museum's knowledge last Mosin-Nagants were removed from reserve stockpiles in late 1990s. Also currently used sniper rifle - 7.62 TKIV 85 - is based on Mosin-Nagant. If I have understood correctly they use old receivers modified as necessary.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by MH

True but maintaining them zeroed in in extreme conditions is a different story....
Try to use Ak,s side rail with an adapter to which you attach whatever you need in the field.
In particular when in need run or throw your self with the gun to the ground rocks or what ever...
Besides the issue that it gets stuck in your uniform or gear.
Actually this gun becomes very awkward with addons .
Ergonomy ,lightweight ease of use or acquiring target gives edge in combat...besides training and so on.

Aren't we missing the point a bit though? It's not the amount of extra bits that you can put on an AK that has made it one of the worlds biggest selling firearms, it's the fact that it's lightweight, easy to use, easy to maintain and in a close in fire fight will kill just as effectively as any other weapon out there. Most AKs aren't used out in long range fire-fights anyway, but close in town sieges and battles, and they're rarely used against well armed western forces but against other militias with AKs and FN FALs, and it does its job very well for that. I mean, an eight year old child is going to struggle to disassemble and re-assemble a M4 Carbine, but the AK with minimal parts, is...quite literally...childs play.
Then you've got repairs, with so many in action it's easy to get the parts, and if you can't then you could most likely get some stamped by a scrap merchant, although it wouldn't do much for the life-span of the weapon.

Basically, it's the same reason that you still find the Lee Enfield in use, it's simple, it's reliable, and it's good for the job that it's designed for, even after all these years. After all, the more complicated the drain, the easier it is to block it up.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by MH

True but maintaining them zeroed in in extreme conditions is a different story....
Try to use Ak,s side rail with an adapter to which you attach whatever you need in the field.
In particular when in need run or throw your self with the gun to the ground rocks or what ever...
Besides the issue that it gets stuck in your uniform or gear.
Actually this gun becomes very awkward with addons .
Ergonomy ,lightweight ease of use or acquiring target gives edge in combat...besides training and so on.

I will have to concede on your points of addons of holding zero, portability with add-ons, and ergonomics. It sounds like you've tried this, so i'll just take your word for it. Personally, I subscribe to the idea of KISS and practicality. I've never delved much into addon's aside from a simple cowitnessed red dot sight, and a light; and even that much took some arm twisting. Maybe i'm getting old and senile at 40, but I just never got onto the gadget train.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by MH

Have you ever been on receiving end of anything?
Sure you dont.
You dont want to be on the receiving end of a bow....not that i compare AK to bow as a pun.
Yes AK will stay for a long time , yet not with modern armed forces.

A firearm not directly but I have been places where that particular firearm could have been used to sling lead at yours truly.My father and two brothers have been on the "snap" end of an AK and they lack your opinion.


Been on the receiving of fists and feet on more than a few occasions if you are trying to imply that I am untested.Been on the receiving side of some very poorly laid mortars a few times as well they only manged to hit dirt before they got wasted to decided to go back to Pakistan or decided that they pay was not sufficient enough.Never fired a weapon in anger they never had the balls to try and attack a large base on foot to make such action possible.