Kalashnikov RIP

[mapuc]

I have more trust in what you write than my memory

Edit

Searched the internet and found this article

http://www.haaretz.com/news/ak-47-in...heirs-1.185455

Here's a phrase from the article

"In Vietnam, American soldiers threw away their M-16 rifles and used [Kalashnikov] AK-47s from dead Vietnamese soldiers, with bullets they captured. That was because the climate is different to America, where M-16s may work properly," he said."

so my memory was not that wrong.

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

It should also be noted that those fouling problems were soon investigated and corrected. The M16 of 1965 was not the same weapon of 1970. There were many improvements to both weapon and ammo in the meantime.

I think, on the whole, until the fouling problems were fixed most soldiers preferred to use the M14 rather than to pick up an AK, but out in the field, in the heat of the moment, it's always possible, but like you said it wasn't likely to be a widespread thing and would have been very very much frowned upon.
Like the AK, the M16 was a good weapon for the jungle, close quarter combat, lighter than the 14 too, but there's something about the construction of the M14 that I prefer over the 16.
Of course, here's a R.Lee Ermey clip comparing them:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee9_1...099&comments=1


But this thread isn't about the 14 or 16, it's about the 47, and boy is that a weapon that will leave its mark on history.

Originally Posted by mapuc

I have more trust in what you write than my memory

Edit

Searched the internet and found this article

http://www.haaretz.com/news/ak-47-in...heirs-1.185455

Here's a phrase from the article

"In Vietnam, American soldiers threw away their M-16 rifles and used [Kalashnikov] AK-47s from dead Vietnamese soldiers, with bullets they captured. That was because the climate is different to America, where M-16s may work properly," he said."

so my memory was not that wrong.

Markus

Yeah, I came across that quote too, no doubt it did happen, probably during the M16s rough 'Mattel Toy' early years, but the risks of friendly fire would have limited its use.

There's a pretty good discussion on it here that I just found:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=94570

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think, on the whole, until the fouling problems were fixed most soldiers preferred to use the M14 rather than to pick up an AK, but out in the field, in the heat of the moment, it's always possible, but like you said it wasn't likely to be a widespread thing and would have been very very much frowned upon.
Like the AK, the M16 was a good weapon for the jungle, close quarter combat, lighter than the 14 too, but there's something about the construction of the M14 that I prefer over the 16.
Of course, here's a R.Lee Ermey clip comparing them:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee9_1...099&comments=1


But this thread isn't about the 14 or 16, it's about the 47, and boy is that a weapon that will leave its mark on history.



Yeah, I came across that quote too, no doubt it did happen, probably during the M16s rough 'Mattel Toy' early years, but the risks of friendly fire would have limited its use.

There's a pretty good discussion on it here that I just found:
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=94570

Thanks for the links, was very interesting to read.

When I googled for "American soldies prefer AK47 in vietnam war

Many links about the iraqi war came up.

Markus

[Skybird]

AK-47 may be famous - but one wonders what there would be without the Sturmgewehr 44 that preceded it and other modern assault rifles. Another of those Third Reich gadgets that everybody later based on.

From a different perspective, not nuclear weapons, bombers or anything are the real weapons of mass destructions, but small callibre arms. Seen that way one maybe better takes note of the man's death - and leaves it to that. It's an absolutely murderous item we are talking of, and one with a probably unique historic killing record. Not exactly what I would want to celebrate.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

There's a pretty good discussion on it here that I just found

Most of that discussion seems to be about SpecOps which is a totally different combat situation than what conventional forces would find themselves in.

As for comparing the two weapons a lot has to do with the time frame you're talking about. One can't just say "during Vietnam" because that encompasses over a decade, with many different unit types, tactics and situations.

Bottom line here is while the AK is a lot lower maintenance than the M16 variants the looser tolerances that make it so also makes it a lot less accurate. There's 100 meters difference in effective range between the two weapons. 300 feet is a long way to maneuver under enemy fire without being able to hit back.

Coupled with the problems obtaining ammo for it and the risk of mis-identification means that while regular Infantry might make use of an enemy weapon in a pinch, like you said it would be fairly rare occurrence.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think, on the whole, until the fouling problems were fixed most soldiers preferred to use the M14 rather than to pick up an AK, but out in the field, in the heat of the moment, it's always possible, but like you said it wasn't likely to be a widespread thing and would have been very very much frowned upon.
Like the AK, the M16 was a good weapon for the jungle, close quarter combat, lighter than the 14 too, but there's something about the construction of the M14 that I prefer over the 16.
Of course, here's a R.Lee Ermey clip comparing them:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee9_1...099&comments=1

Meh R.Lee was not infantry though he was in aircraft maintenance so he did not have to hump an M14 through jungle,delta,highlands,....hell.Most true grunts from Vietnam whom I now where actually grunts pretty well liked the M16 sure it was not perfect but the M14 was a bit bulky and in most operational areas in Vietnam where much more claustrophobic where the long range advantage of an M14 would not have leneded itself well.Plus the weight factor in such a brutal climate as Vietnam this is a very important factor.Kind of like WWII in the Pacific many preferred the M1 carbine over other small arms for the same reasons.


Also people tend to ignore Aussie and New Zeland troops who had the choice between the M16 and the L1A1 and many preferred the M16.

Those quotes are most likely from the battle of Hamburger Hill in 1969 or the Battle of Hill 881 there was another hill battle in 1967 which I have read of but can't seem to recall the name of where the troops where ordered to pick up enemy weapons and complete the advance to take the hill or die where they stood.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

AK-47 may be famous - but one wonders what there would be without the Sturmgewehr 44 that preceded it and other modern assault rifles. Another of those Third Reich gadgets that everybody later based on.

Probably right exactly were we are today anyways. After all it's been pretty conclusively proven that the AK was not based the 44 and neither was the M1 Carbine.

[Stealhead]

The other day Skybird was getting on to people for doing the very thing he just did in this thread not to call anyone out but it is what it is.

As if the STG44 was the first attempt at an "assault rifle" to use the term loosely.

[Skybird]

Whatever. The SG44 left quite a huge impression in Russian - and Western - minds, and Kalashnikov himself said in a rare interview about which I have read many years ago that the SG44 tremendously influenced his thinking - both in things he took over and things he made different. He said the Russians rated the concept of the SG44 and its military value in the war as very high. He said without the SG44 he would have done the AK quite differently - again both regarding design decisions "copying" the German SG'S characteristics and design decisions that were made to "replace" details in the German weapon. Also, the idea behind the SG44 - to combine carbine and machine pistol and make support by LMG and MMG less essential, was a kickstart to similiar brainstorming in East and West.

Technically, the SG44 and the AK47 are quite different, still, the SG44 has influenced the design of this and similar machine carbines (as would be the correct German term instead of assault rifle).

The SG44 gets used in third world conflicts until today. And German wikipedia says ammunition for it still gets manufactured, for example in Serbia.

[Red October1984]

RIP to a great man with a great idea turned into a great innovation.

[Ducimus]

(45:57)

Mentions much of what some are discussing in this thread. I watched it earlier today, but didn't bother linking it.

[TFatseas]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Whatever. The SG44 left quite a huge impression in Russian - and Western - minds, and Kalashnikov himself said in a rare interview about which I have read many years ago that the SG44 tremendously influenced his thinking - both in things he took over and things he made different. He said the Russians rated the concept of the SG44 and its military value in the war as very high. He said without the SG44 he would have done the AK quite differently - again both regarding design decisions "copying" the German SG'S characteristics and design decisions that were made to "replace" details in the German weapon. Also, the idea behind the SG44 - to combine carbine and machine pistol and make support by LMG and MMG less essential, was a kickstart to similiar brainstorming in East and West.

Technically, the SG44 and the AK47 are quite different, still, the SG44 has influenced the design of this and similar machine carbines (as would be the correct German term instead of assault rifle).

The SG44 gets used in third world conflicts until today. And German wikipedia says ammunition for it still gets manufactured, for example in Serbia.

Meh, the tilting bolt design of the StG 44 is a world away from the AK-47.

The AK is closer to a SVT or a SKS, heck, even an M1 Garand internally than a StG. I don't doubt the StG 44 influenced the AK, but I believe more of it comes from the Soviet's own designs.

Anyhow, I need to do a mag dump for Mr. Kalashnikov.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TFatseas

Anyhow, I need to do a mag dump for Mr. Kalashnikov.

Mag dump did you say?



Edit:
Although, I'd have been more impressed if he was using a class 3 AK.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by TFatseas

Anyhow, I need to do a mag dump for Mr. Kalashnikov.

Sounds like fun...

I really love shooting AK's. They're great rifles on and off the battlefield IMHO.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Oberon

He will be remembered up there with names like Colt, Gatling and Maxim,

Or down there