Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

And yet you continue to do so. Which of course is your right.

I believe i was talking to August, and I did so publicly because quite frankly, I enjoyed shoving that bit of news into the Anti's face should they see/read it. Ahh, but now I'm no different then they you say? As i recall, the people who I may as well rhetorically say are anti-liberty proponents of mob rule started this fight.

If you don't have an open mind on solving what is clearly a problem then you cannot be part of the solution. Like every thing in life it is your choice.

There are ways to solve problems that does not involve infringing upon any of our civil liberties (also known as Natural or God given rights) written down in our Bill of Rights. ANYTHING that infringes upon those, is a NON OPTION. Get it? Or are you a proponent of the nanny state where individual rights are irrelevant, and everything is for the good of the collective and mob rule the order of the day? You don't have to answer that since neither of us really cares what the other thinks.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I believe i was talking to August, and I did so publicly because quite frankly, I enjoyed shoving that bit of news into the Anti's face should they see/read it. Ahh, but now I'm no different then they you say? As i recall, the people who I may as well rhetorically say are anti-liberty proponents of mob rule started this fight.



There are ways to solve problems that does not involve infringing upon any of our civil liberties (also known as Natural or God given rights) written down in our Bill of Rights. ANYTHING that infringes upon those, is a NON OPTION. Get it? Or are you a proponent of the nanny state where individual rights are irrelevant, and everything is for the good of the collective and mob rule the order of the day? You don't have to answer that since neither of us really cares what the other thinks.

I get it, you've said it enough times, however I've not seen anyone here or elsewhere come up with solutions that have solved the problem. I am no propoent of the nanny state, but am interested in solutions that work.

There are ways to solve problems that does not involve infringing upon any of our civil liberties (also known as Natural or God given rights) written down in our Bill of Rights. ANYTHING that infringes upon those, is a NON OPTION. Get it?

That might make sense if you lived in a fantasy world.
In the real world a nuts right to have guns has a tendency to infringe on other peoples right to life and the pursuit of happiness(Washington being the latest big news example)
When you put the right to life and the right to have unrestricted access to gunz on the scales anyone who chooses gunz must have a very warped idea of how a balance works.
In fact their ideas may be so warped that it makes them SHOUT a lot.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

I get it, you've said it enough times, however I've not seen anyone here or elsewhere come up with solutions that have solved the problem. I am no propoent of the nanny state, but am interested in solutions that work.

Well, if your going to be rational about it, I will return the favor.

Politically speaking, one big problem we have is a polarized political landscape, bills loaded with "pork", manipulative language, and perhaps cultural issues. I'll break this down as best as i can to my own understanding:

- Any gun control bill is usually introduced by the Democrats. We all know about Team R vs Team D, so there's no need to go into that. But suffice to say, compromise is a word that no longer truly exists in the political lexicon. Gun control is mainly a partisan issue, and one that i'm sure you can tell brings about alot of... passion. So much so that even politically agnostic people such as myself jumped into the fray.

- Bill pork. Usually someone wants something more, so they get it added into the bill, whatever it may be, as "pork". Bills that ordinarily may have passed on issues such as this, will not, if one side adds pork to it. In this context we may as well call Pork "The poison pill that the other side cannot swallow".

- Misleading and manipulative language. Quite frankly some of the language these politicians come up with is an insult to our intelligence, which does nothing but anger the opposing side. When you can clearly seeing they are being manipulative, it casts aside any notion of sitting down at the "negotiating table."

- Cultural issues. I've discussed this at length with Oberon in the past in this very thread.


I go into all of this because this, as far as i can tell is what stops any real solutions. In fact until both sides can sit down and equally respect the others views, nothing is going to happen. Which is unfortunate because both sides want to reduce mass shootings and gun crime in general. What we get instead is just more vitriol, which i have no problem returning in kind. I care little for partisan poltiics, but i care deeply about the US constitution and the Bill of rights. Everything else to me, is "small stuff". I want my unborn Daughter to live with all of the freedom and liberty I had when i was born, and her kids, and their kids, etc etc but I degress.

Real solutions?

First, I want to toss out any notion of confiscation or curtailing of ownership of firearms (edit) by law abiding citizens. Let's just move that off the table right now. Let's be realistic. How many millions of people own firearms of all types in this country? I'm not sure an exact number can be found, especially now after the several month long and just now starting to subside, run on the gun stores. In sum, statistically speaking, truly, it's not the gun that is the problem, it's individuals. Furthermore i believe it unjust the punish everyone for the actions of a select few. I believe there are two types of individuals that are the problem:

a.) Those who have mentally deteriorated and go nuts.
b.) Criminals

Unfortunately most of what I can think of, will parrot things you've already heard:

Regarding the mentally ill:

- On campus police officer. This isn't a new concept by any means. When i was in high school gang violence was a big issue. So much so they removed all book lockers. I had to carry ALL my books, with me ALL day, because drugs, knives, chains, bats, guns, all manner of deadly objects would find their way on campus. Simple "rent-a-cops" were inadequate. Sometime after i graduated, the local PD opened a small office on campus. It worked. Crime dropped dramatically.


- Mental health system needs a major overhaul. I keep wondering whatever happened to the "men in white coats" who would come and take the crazy person away. Beyond that, this latest shooting clearly illustrates there is a lack of communication between various agencies. Had this gunman's mental condition been appropriately communicated, perhaps none of this would have happened. The same could be said of previous mass shootings. The warning signs were there, and they were all ignored.

Where things get more sticky is the criminal element:

- Any offender of a crime who uses a firearm in the commisson of that crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. We already have so many laws regarding firearms, and not all of them are followed through on. How will adding more laws the the books when we don't even enforce all the ones we do have make any difference? Anyone who uses a gun in the commission of a crime should be made an example of.

- Straw purchases should also be made an example of. I think a recent bill regarding straw purchases did make it through if im not mistaken. I think this is one area both sides can agree on.

- The biggest problem is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals to begin with. If you really want to get down to brass tacks, they steal them from somewhere. I've read news stories as wild as the use of a rental moving van being used to smash in cinder block walls to get at a gunstores inventory, to simple home burglary. In this regard I can only think of two things:


a.) Any gunstore should have those concrete filled steel poles surrounding the premises as to stop any vehicle from being used to gain entrance. Or in other words, greatly increase security on gun stores. Most already are very secure, a few are not.

b.) You could mandate that citizens keep their arms locked up in a safe via law (something which responsible owners should be doing anyway), but the federal government telling people what to do in their own homes will not go over well. I know I would not be appreciative of that, though it would not effect me as I already keep all of our firearms locked up in a safe like this one , unfortunately not everyone can afford to buy a safe. It took me awhile to save for one myself.


One thing i do wonder, is if some shifts in society do have some roll to play. A large topic that i hesitate to go into, and would require a thread and a several page essay all unto itself.

One thing that I'm quite sure plays some roll is the media to some extent. The amount of press coverage a mass shooter gets nationally both in major media outlets and social media outlets is astounding. By the end of the week everyone will know his name, and his lifes story. If you want to be noticed, you most certainly will by doing a mass shooting. I think this only encourages copycat's and others who want to "make a statement" or "go out with a bang".

Anyway, I'm out of gas for now.

[Feuer Frei!]

According to maps by the U.N. Office of Drugs and Crime.

True internationally as well as domestically.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...w-In-Homicides

[Oberon]

I'm going for...oh...three or four on this one.

[CaptainMattJ.]

It'd also be fair to note the bigger cause of homicide/crime is poverty. They are all very poor countries with very big drug syndicates.

That's a funny pair of maps, the colours don't match.
They appear to not show the correlation which the author is claiming they show.
Which is even stranger when you consider his "facts"
I wonder why the author changed the second map, could it perhaps be to paint certain countries in a better light by blending the bands together?

It'd also be fair to note the bigger cause of homicide/crime is poverty. They are all very poor countries with very big drug syndicates

That's weird, that the conclusion the actual study reached
Though they did add "illegal" firearms ownership as a major factor, which is of course totally absent in the first map Breitbart used to try make their "point".

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

According to maps by the U.N. Office of Drugs and Crime.

True internationally as well as domestically.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...w-In-Homicides

I saw this article some time back. While I am a rabid supporter of the second amendment and the bill in rights in general, I have to say that articles like this, or anything that is even remotely "pro gun" will be shot full of holes by the progressive/anti-gun types. Sad fact of the matter is, no matter how much logical evidence and facts are presented, they will find a way to discredit it to support their point of view. They will never concede, and never give up, until the only people who have arms in this country is the government.

As one commentator put it:

"If you are for gun control, then you’re not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. You’ll need to go around, pass laws and shoot people who resist … just to take away guns. So it’s not that you’re anti-gun … you just believe that only the government should be allowed to have guns. So there’s no such thing as gun control, there’s only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small political elite.”

Sad fact of the matter is, no matter how much logical evidence and facts are presented, they will find a way to discredit it to support their point of view.

Logic and facts would be fine, there is no way to discredit those.
But a dodgy piece by a known charlatan who uses "the dog ate my homework" approach when challenged on his "facts" is obviously not a great example to use if you want to apply logic and fact to support your argument.

[Bilge_Rat]

That article is very misleading since it lumps all countries with a 0-5 murders per 100,000 pop together. When you actually break it down by country, a different picture emerges, i.e.:

U.S.A .....14,000+ murders = 4.7 per 100K
Canada........554 murders = 1.6 per 100k
U.K..............722 murders = 1.2 per 100k
Germany.......690 murders = 0.8 per 100k
Japan...........506 murders = 0.4 per 100k

These are 2012 figures, so the U.S. murder rate is 3 to 12 times higher than countries with a comparable standard of living.

when you look at firearms related homicide, the discrepancy is even worse:

USA = 3.6
Can. = 0.5
UK = 0.04
Ger. = 0.20
Jap. = zero

There the US has a murder rate by firearms 7 to 90 times higher than other comparable countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

That article is very misleading since it lumps all countries with a 0-5 murders per 100,000 pop together.

Yep, the genuine map breaks up that range to differentiate between the categories
But as a bonus just to prove how feeble and pathetic the attempt was. if you look at the Years which he claims the figures are from, the US moves up into the yellow category on his altered map.
So not only does the piece blend categories to try and hide the facts, it actually moves the US into a lower category

That puts the article beyond "very misleading" and into the realms of "outright fabrication".

Which raises the question.
If logical evidence and facts can make the argument, why are they instead resorting to very silly and very obvious lies?

[MH]

Not as bad as Somalia or it it lol.
This is insult to intelligence.

You better try the angle of the issue being acceptable part of freedom you enjoy on this matter -for better or worse , instead of insulting yourself.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

According to maps by the U.N. Office of Drugs and Crime.

True internationally as well as domestically.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...w-In-Homicides

Gah!
Why, why, why, why isn't this in the gun thread where it belongs? That thread was made so the GT section isn't flooded with gun related crap anymore.

[Sailor Steve]

A good question. I'm sure Jim will move it when he gets the chance.