Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds'

[Ducimus]

What I love the most about this bit so far, is how all too familiar it is with our government placing blame on the existing regime without rock solid evidence.

I remember this:


I hope regime change isn't their real goal. We can't do this again.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Be careful what you ask for. A new Constitutional Convention would be wide open for any changes they wanted to make, with no restrictions. Considering the things you're complaining about and the current strength of the Left, you would probably end up with a much worse situation rather than a better one.


I agree with amendments, but don't cofuse them with a new Constitution. The main reason the president has the power he does is that the members of the original convention knew that George Washington would be the first president, and they trusted him implicitly. That power came back to haunt them, and is still with us today.

On the other hand for all your complaints about the current president, he really doesn't have the kind of power you think he does. He gets a lot of what he wants because Congress is on his side for the most part. The President can suggest and influence all he wants, but he has no power at all to make laws.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what amendments would you propose?

Oh Obama has as much power as he thinks, he disregards law or "interprets" it to his liking.Things obviously need to be more clearly spelled out to prevent future presidencies such as his or that of his predecessor and those before even but the last two seem to have abused their power as well.

Amendment wise. Term limits for one. We managed to get one through limiting the Presidency because many saw how dangerous Roosevelt had become.I think Roosevelt was a good man overall but he was a man and let power corrupt him, his radical social policies opened the door and was the foundation of where we are today.I will praise him for his leadership in the war and his inspiration but his policies on the economy were crap, the war saved the economy, not his domectic policies.Keynesianism just never works.Anyways, such term limits should be imposed for Senators and Congressmen. One six year term for Senators, may run for a second after sitting out for six years, two terms maximum. Two 2 year terms for reps, that is it.Ten year term for supreme court justices and 6 years for all other federal judges, they are part of the problem as well.Amendment cutting pay and benefits of congress and president and all federal employees.They are way over compensated. Basically an amendment to curb what has become an elite political class in this country.

Amendment that would get the money out of politics. strict, clear laws on donations, gifts, trips, etc. to lawmakers. No lobbying by business or special interests.Private citizens may protest, show up to talk to members etc but absolutely nothing of value may given etc.

Repeal of the 16th amendment is also needed, starve the beast of it's funding, we won't have such a problem and it would solve the immorality of taxing people's income directly.The language of this amendment would also prevent the bloodsuckers from creating an outrageously high VAT tax etc. Perhaps replace the amendment with a low flat tax of 8 percent, with few exemptions, perhaps for elderly and low income.

Amendments that hold those who create, pass, sign and have ANYTHING to do with laws that obviously violate the constitution of the united states a felony offense. Drone strikes on US citizens without a trial? felony. Indefinite detention of a US citizen no matter what the charge? Felony.

An amendment to clarify the commerce clause since the supreme court botched that one. The amendment would state that under no circumstances may the federal government force citizens to purchase a product or service from any entity whatsoever, be it private, public, or a combination.

An amendment that abolishes the NSA and strictly prohibits the activities revealed by snowden. This amendment would also make a real FISA court, not the facade there is now.

A transparency amendment that demands transparency at all levels of government.No secrets from the public.period.

Basically, we need a series of amendments to correct some mistakes and address the long term institutional problems of the is nation. I agree, we have to be careful, don't want a new constitution created with undue left wing influence.

I disagree, the Presidency has immense power now days, esp when you have someone who like the current one who has a penchant for ignoring the law and doing as he wishes in many instances.Unfortunately, this is the nature of man, to seek as much power as possible and it is too much power for one man to have. The moment it was revealed obama ordered a drone strike on a US cititzen which is tantamount to a summary exectuon, he should have been impeached.The presidential power to pardon should be abolished as well. I would say this is Bush did it(never did it to a US citizen to my knowledge) or if Rand Paul were to do it(we know he never would)

[Skybird]

I do not see them wanting regime chnage by military engagement like in Iraq, I indeed think this time they "just" act stupid and walk into a stupid situation open-eyed, for the reasons I mentioned one or two pages earlier. It just makes no sense that Assad wanted this chemical strike that is claimed to have been done by him, it just makes no sense - while it makes a lot of sense that the rebels did it.

And another possibility has not been mentioned: a rivalry between officers, or a failure or mishap in the command chain of the Syrian army, resulting in an unwanted order reaching the lower level, and carrying out the attack although Assad did not want it.

I hate to sound as if I defend Assad, I have no intention to do so. But fact remains: this attack makes no sense. And I think it is stupid, braindead and irresponsible that the US and Britain, apparently not knpwing for sure who it was, allow nevertheless to get so easily drawn into assistance of factions that are hostile to them and us all in return. The US engaging in air strikes of which Al Quaeda and jihadists and those terrorist the claimed American war against terror is directed against, do benefit! Think of it - is that queer, or is that queer? What's next? A jihad support treaty between the US and AQ?

[Mittelwaechter]

Did you know that Syria hasn't signed any convention that prohibits the use of chemical weapons against its own people?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...244943321.html

The US used chemical weapons in Vietnam and they sold it to Saddam Hussein to fight Iran. They showed him where to drop it in Iran, to gain maximum effect. Hussein gased the Kurds in northern Iraq too.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...he_gassed_iran

This, and the huge advantage of an gas attack for the aggressors and rebels in Syria should make us think twice.

[Archangel]

In a way its sad to say so but I find it hard to believe in basically anything that comes out from that conflict, the sources are all over the place and conflicting.

Personally it does strike me as strange that Assad would order an attack using chemical weapons, I have not followed the conflict with eagle eyes but as far as I know the war has been swinging in Assad's favor lately, and with the UN inspectors coming into the country in addition to that it strikes me as the worst strategic decision ever, especially considering that the US has drawn the "red line" by the use of weapons of mass destruction in terms of intervention.

[Oberon]

Whoa...Whoa...Whoa...

People are getting a bit excited around here, like it's The Day After or something. Calm down a bit folks!
For one thing, oil hasn't been below $100bbl for a few months now, look:



(http://www.infomine.com/investment/m...de-oil/1-year/ in case the picture doesn't show)

It spiked in January, probably because of the Mali situation and the spillover into Algeria, came down a bit and just dipped below 100 in April, but then when Egypt started up again and Syria has gotten worse it's creeping back up again. The highest the prices have gone so far has been $146, so we've still got a way to go, and when that happened in 2008 the world did not end.
Syria puts out at most 20k bbl/day, OPEC has been upping their quota (producing the most in seven months back in May) so that any shortfall from Syria is covered by the other Gulf states. Yes, Syria is in a rather strategic location in regards to oil access, however since Syria has not been particularly friendly to western interests, most of the infrastructure has yet to be built.
That is not to say that there will not be problems ahead, there are a million and one things that could go wrong in the coming weeks, many of them dependent on what Russia does in response, what happens to the Suez Canal and whether Assad is crazy enough to launch on Israel.
I can't see Iran actually stepping up to the plate for Syria, they have too much to lose, I can't see their new leader being in favour of it, but as we all know with Iran it's what the Ayatollah says that matters, so they might just do something but it would surprise me.
I also don't see the UK doing anything until next week at the earliest, the US might go first if Obama wants to skip congress and the UN report, it would be a stupid thing to do, but painting himself into a corner like he has done is also a stupid thing to do. Parliament is going to have a chin wag about it on Thursday, I hope that it's an open session because it should be quite interesting to watch. Hopefully some of our MPs have learnt since the Iraq war, although I see old Tony Blair is in support of an attack on Syria...no real surprises there, if anything the fact that Blair has put his support behind the attack should be a clear example of why we shouldn't do anything!

I also can't see the military involvement being any more than a few TLAMs on certain targets, and maybe the B2s might get a chance to play...heck, if the US is feeling risky it might even take the golden bird into combat (F-22) but anything that doesn't have the RCS of a gnat (and not the Folland kind) will stay firmly on the ground until the SAM sites have been nailed.

I can't see Russia getting militarily involved but they will definitely respond in some manner, most likely economically or diplomatically. They might turn the pipes into Europe off again, not that that does much to the US but it'd certainly screw up things over here, and might well just domino into the US markets.

At times like this though, I always think of that ancient Chinese curse, 'May you live in interesting times', and these sure are interesting...but we're not quite in doomsday territory yet.

Yet.

[Mittelwaechter]

Just to balance the information - the aggresors have some supporting media too.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...e-assad-regime

They claim to have well informed, networked informants telling the CWs were used without knowledge of the Syrian forces gunners.

Do you think the gas rockets should be marked somehow, even only to avoid shooting them into the incoming wind direction?

[Onkel Neal]

Well, being a motorcycle salesman, I'm hoping for some action to get oil prices up there.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Whoa...Whoa...Whoa...

People are getting a bit excited around here, like it's The Day After or something. Calm down a bit folks!

Knowing our government, and its track record, I think being worried about this is well justified.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Knowing our government, and its track record, I think being worried about this is well justified.

Well, yeah, but there's being worried, and then there's panic-buying and the sky is falling in being worried.

Mittel may also have a point, there was someone, if not in this thread, then somewhere I saw that mentioned the possibility that a random general conducted this attack in order to try and advance his position in the Assad regime. Reminds me a bit of the film version of 'The Sum of All Fears'.

No...wait...I'm trying to calm people down here...that doesn't help.

[eddie]

Take a deep breath Oberon, it will be alright,lol Just think, in another parallel universe, this isn't happening,hopefully.

[Wolferz]

Watch this boys and girls....


Pay no attention to the cruise missiles behind the curtain.

[Packlife]

Impeach Obama??? WOW you dont impeach a president just because you dont like him, there a hard far right republicans who are shooting that idea down. Remember a guy named Bill Clinton??? They tried impeaching him for having sex an it blew up in their faces, Obama has not committed any high crime or serious misdemeanors, if Obama had broken the law I assure you the republican held congress would have him strung up on impeachment charges so fast it'd break your neck. An to say he has all kinds of power because congress agree's with him???? Where do you live I'd like to visit sometime the current congress HATES Obama, they held meetings when he was elected the first time on how to screw him which lead to 5 years of obstructionism from congress that's why the congress's approval rating is like 6%. Now Bush War Crimes??? put your self in that mans shoes sitting in a Florida classroom on 9/11/01. Maybe he over reacted some but he said it in his book best, the same people in October of 01' who hailed him as a hero an genius for these different things like the Patriot act, turned on him not even 2 years later. No one had a problem w/ it when the wounds were fresh an everyday we turned on the tv we saw the smoldering ruins of the twin towers an pentagon an the torn up field in Pa, but after Bin Laden gave us the slip in Tora Bora an the debris cleared people changed their minds. I agree on something's like limiting terms some of these guys still thing their in the Joe McCarthy era. But don't forget what America has always stood for, sticking up for those who cant stand up for themselves.

[Packlife]

Decided to do this in 2 post's. Some say we shouldn't do anything because what's happening in Syria doesn't affect us or our interest's, but it does on both account's. Assad is going to fall it's just a matter of time an the number of dead before he falls. Here are my reasons on how not doing something eventually hurts America. 1 there are reports of some checkpoint's flying the Al-Qaeda flag, so they are there, obviously supporting the factions that support turning Syria into a hard core Islamic state like Afghanistan was. If that side wins w/ the help of Al-Qaeda their payment will be in chemical weapons an a large group to recruit from which can lead to a chemical weapon being set off somewhere in the US or at least an attempt to do it. 2nd Israel is an interest of ours since their friends of ours, they share a border Israel already did 1 airstrike stopping Syrian weapons being payed to Hezbollah for helping Assad. An the biggest reason I think we should do something is, when I see row upon row of dead little kids an their mothers from gas it makes my blood boil. You don't go after women an children, that's even a big rule among the Arab people an Assad crossed that line like he was signing a check, this guy went from arresting protesters, to beating them, to shooting them, to finally bombing, shelling, an now gassing them. To say well to shoot that missile will just add to our debt is such a cop out, your saying that innocent kids an women aren't worth helping because their not Americans is a shame an is not what this country was built on. We fought against a tyrant for our freedom as well, lucky for us they didn't have jets an chemical weapons. An that's why people ask us for our help because we know what it means to want to live free. To stand by an let Assad to keep on using chemical weapons on his own people especially the innocent one's is just wrong. What should we do?? Airstrikes an missile strikes, now I'd love to see us straight up pound Assad into dust with our air power I have no sympathy for tyrants dictators or butchers, an I don't feel bad knowing that his future is probably going to be short an painful.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Packlife

Decided to do this in 2 post's. Some say we shouldn't do anything because what's happening in Syria doesn't affect us or our interest's, but it does on both account's. Assad is going to fall it's just a matter of time an the number of dead before he falls. Here are my reasons on how not doing something eventually hurts America. 1 there are reports of some checkpoint's flying the Al-Qaeda flag, so they are there, obviously supporting the factions that support turning Syria into a hard core Islamic state like Afghanistan was. If that side wins w/ the help of Al-Qaeda their payment will be in chemical weapons an a large group to recruit from which can lead to a chemical weapon being set off somewhere in the US or at least an attempt to do it. 2nd Israel is an interest of ours since their friends of ours, they share a border Israel already did 1 airstrike stopping Syrian weapons being payed to Hezbollah for helping Assad. An the biggest reason I think we should do something is, when I see row upon row of dead little kids an their mothers from gas it makes my blood boil. You don't go after women an children, that's even a big rule among the Arab people an Assad crossed that line like he was signing a check, this guy went from arresting protesters, to beating them, to shooting them, to finally bombing, shelling, an now gassing them. To say well to shoot that missile will just add to our debt is such a cop out, your saying that innocent kids an women aren't worth helping because their not Americans is a shame an is not what this country was built on. We fought against a tyrant for our freedom as well, lucky for us they didn't have jets an chemical weapons. An that's why people ask us for our help because we know what it means to want to live free. To stand by an let Assad to keep on using chemical weapons on his own people especially the innocent one's is just wrong. What should we do?? Airstrikes an missile strikes, now I'd love to see us straight up pound Assad into dust with our air power I have no sympathy for tyrants dictators or butchers, an I don't feel bad knowing that his future is probably going to be short an painful.

Morally and ideologically that is a sound move, however there are a number of very practical problems in the way.

Assad is not Saddam, although it's almost an anagram, although the Syrian army has been battered and bruised by a long and bloody civil war, it is still a potent weapon, in particular the troublesome S-300 Surface to Air Missile system which can be compared to early Patriot SAM batteries. If you start flying F-15s and the like over there, they are going to start being shot at, and eventually the law of averages dictates that one or more of them are going to be shot down.
So, cruise missiles, certainly that is an option and it's most likely the option that's going to get used when this does kick off, however unless you have tags on every single chemical weapon that Assad has then you're going to miss some, and this whole thing is going to happen again. This is the reason (well, one of the official ones anyway) that the coalition put boots on the ground in Iraq, because at the end of the day, the only way to be sure that you've got all the chemical weapons is to get in there and have a good look about, and you can't do that from a UAV or a cruise missile, or even a spy satellite. That we are aware of, anyway.
Then there's the opposition, the Free Syrian Army and all the myriad groups that make up the people fighting against Assad, including Al'Qaeda. They also have chemical weapons, it is entirely possible that they have used these chemical weapons already, it is also entirely possible that it was they who carried out this attack, not Assad. How do you get rid of the chemical weapons that they have? Bomb both sides?
You hope that if Assad is removed by the west that someone who isn't Al'Qaeda linked will get into power in Syria. I think that that hope may be quite misplaced, Al'Qaeda are the biggest and strongest anti-Assad forces in Syria at the moment, they pretty much ARE the FSA, just as Iran and Hezbollah are pretty much the footsloggers for the Syrian army. This Syrian war isn't just a civil war, it's a proxy war for the dominant powers of the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Al'Qaeda and Hezbollah.
The whole Arab Spring is the conclusion to an event that started nearly a hundred years ago in the Sykes-Picot agreement, where we arbitarily decided the borders of the Middle East based upon our asessments rather than the wishes of the inhabitants, a dying tendril of the old imperialist ways one could say. Now, we could get involved again, to try and hammer out some new status quo, to force the square pegs into the round holes, but who knows what kind of disaster that would create further down the line?
I too am repulsed by the footage I have seen, only scant pages further back in this thread I was arguing most vehemently against those who thought (and some still think) that this footage was made up. I can still in my minds eye see the spasms and the shaking, but we can't just go wading in, guns blazing, and not expect any serious consequences to our actions. Look at Afghanistan, look at Iraq, whilst their governments may be different and arguably their people enjoy greater freedoms, all of that is overshadowed by the complete and utter lawlessness that pervades all levels of society, from the corrupt government officals down to the Al'Qaeda enforcers that shoot little girls. This would be what would await Syria through western intervention...in fact, it's what awaits Syria outside of western intervention, as you have already realised.
Then there is the big question of Russia, the same Russia that owns a naval facility in Syria, is an ally of Syria and has supplied Syria with the weaponry being used by both sides to kill each other. Russia is not likely to take too well to American forces bombing their allies, and whilst I think it extremely unlikely that they would retaliate in a military fashion, Russians have long memories and their global influence cannot be underestimated. The last thing we need is another Cold War, and we've been dancing on the edge of one for at least a decade, despite attempts by Russia to thaw the ice.

Believe me, I would dearly love to see the end of the Syrian civil war, to know that there will be no more chemical attacks. I have read Wilfred Owen, I have seen photos from the trenches, I detest chemical and gas warfare, but I fear the consequences of western action may be greater than we can afford.