The price of trying to go green.

[mako88sb]

Looks like the process of weaning ourselves off fossil fuels is becoming a dismal failure:

http://joannenova.com.au/2013/08/the...across-europe/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-scandals.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...ts-917202.html


I didn't know much about Thorium reactors until recently and I understand China is in the process of building some. Does this not seem a better way to go for generating electricity?

[Wolferz]

Green tech is in a downward spiral headed for a catastrophic crash landing.

Until someone can invent a method for cold fusion, we will continue to see the planet warming up from greenhouse gases.
Hot fusion has been accomplished for a whole millionth of a second.

The eco-Nazis are going to continue their "sky is falling" routine until we're all suffocated by the high cost of energy. Or bankrupted by irresponsible governments looking for green power.
Anybody want to buy some carbon credits?

[AVGWarhawk]

Not all green is bad. Depending on how one looks at it. We purchased energy efficient appliances for our home. And I do mean all of them. The washer is also a low water appliance using less than half of what a standard washer requires. Our home is also rated as a 4 star energy efficient home. Our home is 3500 square feet. Our electric bill last month was $47.00. This is a family of four. The central air was in use. Our last home at 1000 square feet running the central air for the month would average $300.00 for the month. Obviously less was required of the generating plant to run our home for the month. Perhaps working towards educating the end user with the technology we have today is the best answer for now.

[Skybird]

In Germany Green electricity gets heavily subsidized. So heavily that they have imposed a system on us that distorts the market logic completely. The more green electricity gets produced over here, on a windy or sunny day - the more expensive the kW-hour produced by that becomes for the private household. Ni exaggeration, no joke. Nice, eh? the more power we produce, the more expensive it becomes for the private household. Su-per!

Doesn't market logic say the more available an item is, the cheaper it becomes, and the rarer it becomes, the more prices for it go up?

I do not say that green tech could not work and could not work economically. It's just that they regulate it all to death - for reasons of political power, control and especially ideology. Ideology maybe more than anything else.

Health, social equality and green tech at all cost are the modern trinity and have become the surrogate religion of today. Their gospels justify every violation of economy. Especially when they meet planned economy desires and "strong government".

Germans (and the EU) really are in need to inhale a huge dose of English enlightenment: Locke, Smith, Hume. Platon and Rousseau have already caused us so much misery and catastrophe, we really need to learn to leave them behind. The more I learned about the English tradition of philosophy there, the more I learned to appreciate it. Maybe the differences between Anglosaxons and Germans are best summarised by pointing out that Anglosaxon tradition is heavily influenced by the thinking of Aristotle, and German philosophy (and French as well!?) instead followed Platon for the most.

[Betonov]

The problem with green is, that it's a dirty road to get there.

Our company, beside the nautics, makes windmill blade models for Denmark.
Nothing green, nothing clean. Fiberglass, chemicals and a lot of wood. Al imported by diesel drinking trucks all milled by a CNC machine that has the electricity demand of a small village

We made the model for this monster last year

[The Enigma]

Why is nobody questioning what our current means of energy really do cost?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Not all green is bad. Depending on how one looks at it. We purchased energy efficient appliances for our home. And I do mean all of them. The washer is also a low water appliance using less than half of what a standard washer requires. Our home is also rated as a 4 star energy efficient home. Our home is 3500 square feet. Our electric bill last month was $47.00. This is a family of four. The central air was in use. Our last home at 1000 square feet running the central air for the month would average $300.00 for the month. Obviously less was required of the generating plant to run our home for the month. Perhaps working towards educating the end user with the technology we have today is the best answer for now.

Most definitely

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by The Enigma

Why is nobody questioning what our current means of energy really do cost?

The government does regulate the energy companies.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Most definitely

And you know Jim, special incentives were offered on every appliance that was energy star we purchased. We received over $500.00 in Visa cards for purchasing the appliances. In short, our dryer was free. Did we spend a bit extra on a few appliances? Yes. Overall, the little bit extra we paid will be re-cooped in a few months via much lower electrical bills.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

And you know Jim, special incentives were offered on every appliance that was energy star we purchased. We received over $500.00 in Visa cards for purchasing the appliances. In short, our dryer was free. Did we spend a bit extra on a few appliances? Yes. Overall, the little bit extra we paid will be re-cooped in a few months via much lower electrical bills.

Well I'd certainly go for it without the incentives but adding them into the equation makes it a golden opportunity...well done to you and the family

[mako88sb]

Originally Posted by Betonov

The problem with green is, that it's a dirty road to get there.

Our company, beside the nautics, makes windmill blade models for Denmark.
Nothing green, nothing clean. Fiberglass, chemicals and a lot of wood. Al imported by diesel drinking trucks all milled by a CNC machine that has the electricity demand of a small village

We made the model for this monster last year

Excellent point. Plus the unintended consequences resulting from the amount of birds and bats that are killed each year by windmills.

http://www.voanews.com/content/wind-...s/1524387.html

How many more insect pest related problems are the end result of this? I'm sure it's not a trivial number. Plus, how long does each windmill have to operate producing clean energy to offset the conventional energy costs of building, installing and maintaining them. Then of course the conventional costs of building, installing, running and maintaining the back-up generators that are pretty well a requirement. How long can one reasonably expect these to operate? I'd really love to see a detailed breakdown of the economics to determine if these things are even remotely feasible in the long run.

[The Enigma]

@mako88sb
Did you ever wonder how much harm is done and will be done by nuclear power not only to birds but to all life on earth?

[Wolferz]

Skybird,

They do need to recoup the investment in those wind turbines and give the dirty electricity producers their cut for using their transmission lines.
Then there's the maintenance on those turbines. etc etc ad nauseum.

Like you say Warhawk, I think it would be better all the way around by making homes and appliances more energy efficient. But, then the electricity producers are going to take a hit in the bank account and that will go over as well as a lead zeppelin.

I've done my part by replacing my old inefficient coal stoker with a new electronically controlled unit. It uses less coal and electricity for the same amount of heat. My fridge and water heater are both energy star compliant too. The house has been insulated out the wazoo by milady's late husband who worked for the power company. We also replaced a side porch and the sliding door leading onto it. The porch is all recycled windows, which heats the living room to some degree in the winter. The sliding door is double paned glass. Very little heat loss there. We too see the smaller power bills.

[mako88sb]

Originally Posted by The Enigma

@mako88sb
Did you ever wonder how much harm is done and will be done by nuclear power not only to birds but to all life on earth?

Yes I did. I had to do a study on the subject back when I was taking engineering drafting and initially I was pro-nuclear. It didn't take long for me to change my opinion though after a bit of research. However, my understanding is that the Thorium reactor is much less of a problem. In theory anyway. It would be great to get some input from those that have a better understanding of them.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by The Enigma

@mako88sb
Did you ever wonder how much harm is done and will be done by nuclear power not only to birds but to all life on earth?

No idea really.

A link to a reputable source would be nice.