Paranoid cops in Texas? Open-Carry violation.

[garren]

No probable cause to detain him or disarm him. He was just walking with is his rifle. It's his right to carry a firearm in this country. Don't care if the cops got "a call" or not. False arrest as well.

[Wolferz]

Saw that one some time ago. Cops knew they were in the wrong and invented an excuse to haul the guy off.
I would love to see a follow up on the incident.
Have you ever noticed that a lot of police out west wear brown shirts even when the uniform is blue?

[Armistead]

I've watched them all. I open carry all the time when detecting, been stopped and sometimes harassed, but I don't carry a rifle to make a statement on youtube.

[Ducimus]

Yeah I saw that one awhile too. If memory serves correctly, I think the story I read was he was participating in some Boy scout activity, and was not in any urban area at the time of the incident. The video would seem to collaborate some of that, because there didn't look like there was a lot of people around, and he looked like he was on some country road, with day hiking equipment on.

Anywho, i think his biggest mistake was he lost his cool. The instant you pop off to a cop, it will all go downhill from there. Once he gave them an attitude, the outcome was predetermined.

As an aside, unless im at the range, or out in BFE target shooting, or actively hunting, i don't open carry because I just don't normally carry a rifle or shotgun otherwise. As for handguns, I have a IWB holster and a CFP if i feel the need.

[CaptainHaplo]

This goes back to the whole responsibility thing on firearms ownership....

There are people that do this JUST to interact with le and create videos - and you know what - in doing that they are acting irresponsibly. A firearm is a right AND a responsibility - and they are showing they are not up to that side of it.

There is no purpose in it other than to try and get harassed. Guess what - if you go looking for trouble, trouble will find you. That doesn't mean the cops were in the right, but he was just as much in the wrong.

Open carry is a legal right in many states. Then again - carrying whether OC or CC is generally done for defensive purposes or to exercise your 2A rights. Those are fine - but doing so just to get a youtube video .....

[garren]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

This goes back to the whole responsibility thing on firearms ownership....

There are people that do this JUST to interact with le and create videos - and you know what - in doing that they are acting irresponsibly. A firearm is a right AND a responsibility - and they are showing they are not up to that side of it.

There is no purpose in it other than to try and get harassed. Guess what - if you go looking for trouble, trouble will find you. That doesn't mean the cops were in the right, but he was just as much in the wrong.

Open carry is a legal right in many states. Then again - carrying whether OC or CC is generally done for defensive purposes or to exercise your 2A rights. Those are fine - but doing so just to get a youtube video .....

Nobody should be getting stopped by the police at all for simply carrying a firearm in this country. It's a constitutional right. So tired of cops stopping people and asking them for their papers. This is not Nazi Germany and if there's no reason to suspect the person carry the weapon has committed a criminal offense there's no probable cause to stop them and doing so if a violation of that persons rights and is actually a criminal offense by the police. They should tell these people who call to complain that it's a right to carry a firearm in this country and inform them that if they have witnessed the person committing a crime then that's a different matter.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by garren

Nobody should be getting stopped by the police at all for simply carrying a firearm in this country. It's a constitutional right. So tired of cops stopping people and asking them for their papers. This is not Nazi Germany and if there's no reason to suspect the person carry the weapon has committed a criminal offense there's no probable cause to stop them and doing so if a violation of that persons rights and is actually a criminal offense by the police. They should tell these people who call to complain that it's a right to carry a firearm in this country and inform them that if they have witnessed the person committing a crime then that's a different matter.

+1

Firearms are too much automatically associated with crime. Sadly, I don't see that changing.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by garren

Nobody should be getting stopped by the police at all for simply carrying a firearm in this country. It's a constitutional right.

Yes it is - but every right we have should be exercised with responsibility and consideration.

So tired of cops stopping people and asking them for their papers. This is not Nazi Germany and if there's no reason to suspect the person carry the weapon has committed a criminal offense there's no probable cause to stop them and doing so if a violation of that persons rights and is actually a criminal offense by the police.

The fact that they received calls may give them probable cause under the law (depending on what the calls report). While we agree can it shouldn't - it does and we have to deal with the situation we have vs wishing for what should be.

They should tell these people who call to complain that it's a right to carry a firearm in this country and inform them that if they have witnessed the person committing a crime then that's a different matter.

I agree - but your expecting the police to teach the public what the law is - and that isn't their job. Heck, many le's don't even know what the laws are when it comes to carrying firearms. A sad thing to be sure.

As a gun owner who does carry - its important to exercise our 2A rights in a responsible way that does not further reinforce the negative image of firearms and those of us who do choose to carry. Wandering around to make a video interacting with leo's and being an asshat is not. If we don't want society to look at us as if ownership and carrying automatically make us suspicious, then we ought to conduct ourselves in a more respectful and responsible manner. People who fear firearms and those of us who carry them see idiots like in the link and we all get associated with being disrespectful morons - who own guns... No wonder there is a negative stereotype.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Yes it is - but every right we have should be exercised with responsibility and consideration.



The fact that they received calls may give them probable cause under the law (depending on what the calls report). While we agree can it shouldn't - it does and we have to deal with the situation we have vs wishing for what should be.



I agree - but your expecting the police to teach the public what the law is - and that isn't their job. Heck, many le's don't even know what the laws are when it comes to carrying firearms. A sad thing to be sure.

As a gun owner who does carry - its important to exercise our 2A rights in a responsible way that does not further reinforce the negative image of firearms and those of us who do choose to carry. Wandering around to make a video interacting with leo's and being an asshat is not. If we don't want society to look at us as if ownership and carrying automatically make us suspicious, then we ought to conduct ourselves in a more respectful and responsible manner. People who fear firearms and those of us who carry them see idiots like in the link and we all get associated with being disrespectful morons - who own guns... No wonder there is a negative stereotype.

I have to +1 this post too.

Gun Rights need to be promoted in positive ways.

[garren]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Yes it is - but every right we have should be exercised with responsibility and consideration.



The fact that they received calls may give them probable cause under the law (depending on what the calls report). While we agree can it shouldn't - it does and we have to deal with the situation we have vs wishing for what should be.



I agree - but your expecting the police to teach the public what the law is - and that isn't their job. Heck, many le's don't even know what the laws are when it comes to carrying firearms. A sad thing to be sure.

As a gun owner who does carry - its important to exercise our 2A rights in a responsible way that does not further reinforce the negative image of firearms and those of us who do choose to carry. Wandering around to make a video interacting with leo's and being an asshat is not. If we don't want society to look at us as if ownership and carrying automatically make us suspicious, then we ought to conduct ourselves in a more respectful and responsible manner. People who fear firearms and those of us who carry them see idiots like in the link and we all get associated with being disrespectful morons - who own guns... No wonder there is a negative stereotype.

I can agree with most of that. I don't think this guy in this particular video was trying to be a problem to the police however. He was on a hike with his kid and was smart enough to record it with his camera. He could have tried to remain more calm than he was but he was pissed and I can't really fault him for that because they did screw up badly with him. But it didn't make his situation any better with the cops being mouthy with them either. It's one of those things where you're best of just letting them violate you with your mouth closed and obedient to their commands. Then you sue the hell out of them when you got an attorney on your side.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Actually the police have the right to stop and ask anybody anything they want. I could be walking down the street in broad daylight and a cop has the right to stop me and ask me questions. They call them "field interviews". They can't ask me for certain things unless they plan to arrest me but based on these suspicions he has the right to "detain" (asking me to stay usually, not necessarily cuffs) me and ask me questions to confirm or calm his suspicions. I had a cop do one the other day because i was walking down the street at midnight. He was being annoying but he was in the right.

Justification for Conducting a Field Interview Law enforcement officers may stop individuals for the purpose of conducting a field interview only where reasonable suspicion is present. Reasonable suspicion must be more than a hunch or feeling, but need not meet the test for probable cause sufficient to make an arrest. In justifying the stop, the officer must be able to point to specific facts which, when taken together with rational inferences, reasonably warrant the stop. Such facts include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. The appearance or demeanor of an individual suggests that he is part of a criminal enterprise or is engaged in a criminal act;
2. The actions of the suspect suggest that he is engaged in a criminal activity;
3. The hour of day or night is inappropriate for the suspect's presence in the area;
4. The suspect's presence in a neighborhood or location is inappropriate;
5. The suspect is carrying a suspicious object;
6. The suspect's clothing bulges in a manner that suggests he is carrying a weapon;
7. The suspect is located in proximate time and place to the alleged crime; or
8. The officer has knowledge of the suspect's prior criminal record or involvement in criminal activity.

Suspicious object in this case is a firearm. The officer has the right to ask you if you have your license to carry and own a firearm, especially rifle-caliber. When dealing with individuals carrying firearms its really annoying but necessary to detain the individual and/or separate him from his weapon until the interview or arrest is over.

The guy was also being loud and getting angry with the officer, which does nothing for anybody except get the cop pissed off. Realistically you should always keep your cool and be cooperative. Know EXACTLY what you're doing before you refuse to cooperate with certain orders, make absolutely sure you're exercising your rights correctly.

[mookiemookie]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Platapus]

So lemme see if I understand the point under discussion.

If the police receive calls from a citizen reporting a suspicious person carrying a firearm; and when the police arrive they see a person carrying a rifle, we really don't want the police to stop and ask this person questions because the state has open carry laws?

I want the police to ask questions. We are a long way from "let me zee your papers". But there has to be some moderate middle ground between two undesirable extremes

1. Police can not talk to citizens without legal probable cause. There is a huge difference between arrest and field interrogation.
2. Police demanding to see citizenship papers and having the citizens dragged away in a dark van.

A field interrogation is not the same as a custodial interrogation which has a much higher standard of probable cause. This is why, when being talked to by the police, one can (and should), politely ask the officer, "am I free to go?"

If the answer is no - you are in custodial interrogation.
If the answer is yes, you are in a field interrogation.

Unfortunately, depending on the jurisdiction, statements you make during a field interrogation may be used in legal proceedings. In other jurisdictions they are not. This is an area of much debate.


You do not have to stay during a field interrogation. However, the reality is that it may be a lot easier to defuse the situation by cooperating. The fact of life is that if you piss off a cop, they WILL find "something" to justify their actions. Unfortunately, the courts usually side with the actions of the police officer when it comes to a "he said, he said" argument.

It ain't right, it ain't fair

I have been "field interrogated" several times, and in all cases, I cooperated and the situation ended right there.

Was I "kow-tow-ing" to The Man? Probably. But at least I did not end up in a holding cell waiting for a lawyer.

[garren]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

So people shouldn't practice their rights? ... But didn't you just do that with your comment here (freedom of speech)? You know, there's more danger in words than guns after all. A gun never started a war, but speech certainly has. So perhaps if people shouldn't carry guns they shouldn't talk either? I mean, this is your feeling after all... right?

[garren]

Originally Posted by Platapus

So lemme see if I understand the point under discussion.

If the police receive calls from a citizen reporting a suspicious person carrying a firearm; and when the police arrive they see a person carrying a rifle, we really don't want the police to stop and ask this person questions because the state has open carry laws?

I want the police to ask questions. We are a long way from "let me zee your papers". But there has to be some moderate middle ground between two undesirable extremes

1. Police can not talk to citizens without legal probable cause. There is a huge difference between arrest and field interrogation.
2. Police demanding to see citizenship papers and having the citizens dragged away in a dark van.

A field interrogation is not the same as a custodial interrogation which has a much higher standard of probable cause. This is why, when being talked to by the police, one can (and should), politely ask the officer, "am I free to go?"

If the answer is no - you are in custodial interrogation.
If the answer is yes, you are in a field interrogation.

Unfortunately, depending on the jurisdiction, statements you make during a field interrogation may be used in legal proceedings. In other jurisdictions they are not. This is an area of much debate.


You do not have to stay during a field interrogation. However, the reality is that it may be a lot easier to defuse the situation by cooperating. The fact of life is that if you piss off a cop, they WILL find "something" to justify their actions. Unfortunately, the courts usually side with the actions of the police officer when it comes to a "he said, he said" argument.

It ain't right, it ain't fair

I have been "field interrogated" several times, and in all cases, I cooperated and the situation ended right there.

Was I "kow-tow-ing" to The Man? Probably. But at least I did not end up in a holding cell waiting for a lawyer.

NO! I do not support the practice of cops harassing people practicing their constitutionally protected rights to walk around freely with a firearm.

Don't allow the fear mongering government and the paranoia crowd scare you into giving up your rights. That's exactly what they want you to do.

Criminals want guns banned. Because criminals don't care about laws in the first place so they will still have guns and knives on them. They want to make sure you are unarmed so it's easier to steal from you, rape you, murder you.