Of cartoons, censorship, and hysteria

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Good quote. Mind if I take it as a sig?

It's in the public domain. No need to ask.

Im still waiting for western Muslims to hold remembrance ceremonies for those slaughtered children, or Muslims protesting against the violence with as much enthusiasm, endurance and energy as they use to display when protesting against a five months-old cartoon.

Another cartoon, animated and brilliantly so. The word "gevoelig" is Dutch for "sensitive."

[JClark]

Guys, I just finished a book called "The World is Flat", by Thomas Friedman. Even though Friedman stands on the other side of the political aisle from me, he puts forth some very challenging ideas, especially when it comes to the Islamic terrorism issue.

Item 1) European (as opposed to non-Euros) population levels are stable in some countries, declining in others, while Islamic levels are increasing. Result is growing power blocs that politicians will bow to to get votes.

2) The rise in terrorism is directly related to the wide divide between the technology of the US and Europe vs. the level of tech in the Arab nations. There is little if any real middle class, and of that there is no tech. Computer tech, and internet tech is held by the governments for the most part. The common Islamic man (because the woman holds no place in Islam, except as cattle) felt left behind, and disenfranchised by the West. Once the wall came down in Berlin, and the US was the lone superpower left, the focus fell on the US as the purveyor of this huge disparity. Every sin and crime imaginable was laid upon the US by the mullahs, and everywhere madrassas led by Wahibbist sprung up, spreading the Islamic word of Hate.

3) Real pockin' bad on the moderate Islamics, for waiting so long to speak out. Instead of saying this,
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions
the day after 9/11, they pretty much made one line, we don't support this comments. No one took a public stand against this terrorism, and this only emboldened them even more.

What are we to do? Damnifino...it might be too late to resolve this issue with little loss of life. But I will tell you this. If it's down to me and my family or trying to keep a tango from killing them, I'm going to kill hell out of that tango, and any of his buddies that have similiar thoughts. The REAL question for Europeans, is at what point do you decide that you MUST save your way of life. Do you wish to see your wives, daughters, sisters, and mothers held as property? To never be allowed to vote, drive a car, or show their face in public? Do you want to live your lives under Islamic law, with none, repeat, NONE of your cherished freedoms?

Hard times call for hard men.

Byron

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by JClark

2) The rise in terrorism is directly related to the wide divide between the technology of the US and Europe vs. the level of tech in the Arab nations. There is little if any real middle class, and of that there is no tech. Computer tech, and internet tech is held by the governments for the most part. The common Islamic man (because the woman holds no place in Islam, except as chattel) felt left behind, and disenfranchised by the West. Once the wall came down in Berlin, and the US was the lone superpower left, the focus fell on the US as the purveyor of this huge disparity. Every sin and crime imaginable was laid upon the US by the mullahs, and everywhere madrassas led by Wahibbist sprung up, spreading the Islamic word of Hate.
Byron

This is easily refuted through historical analysis, where we see that the Islamic states were far more technologically and socially advanced that their European counterparts, and yet violence against non-muslims continued. Furthermore, even though the Ottoman Empire was the 'sick man' of Europe at the time mentioned in The Avon Lady's post, it was hardly a backward nation.

And what of the European-based muslims who riot and commit acts of terrorism? Having attained relative financial prosperity and technologic parity, one would theorize that they would moderate in their views. The last twelve months prove this to be erronious, and that these individuals retain their militant and extreemist views and motives, relegating the cause of this rift to the realm of the cultural, not economic.

[Skybird]

Tak,

the balance of technological superiority of Islam shifted during the medieval, more and more in favour of the West. the ottoman empire marked an era where it was no longer en par with Europe, neither in terms of sciences, nor in terms of weapons technology. It were the Jews that fled the reformation in Europe that brought that knowledge with them and made it accessibale to Islamic factions. Until then, the military strength of the Ottomans was coming from very skilled elite units, the "Janitscharen" - christian children that were rasied in Muslim faith and then sent to battle to fight against their own christian ancestors. They were educated in great fanatism and great loyalty for their Pasha. Also, the Ottomans themselves were formed up by the previous elite fighters from the Turkmen tribes, who served as soldier slaves in Muslim armies and after some years of service were allowed to gain freedom and social status. At this time, the Turkmen, today'S Turks, were a military elite with an elite training and highly mobile fighting strategy and good leadership qualities, they later formed the Ottoman empire and later today'S Turkey, originally the Turks are coming from the regions on northern Afghnaistan and Iran. But back then, after some they were not able to counter the growing superiority in weapons technology of the Christian Europeans. also, the growing decadence of the Pashas and corruption in their administrative structures, that were unwilling to copy the superior western models, made sure that the Ottoman empire stagnated more and more (reminds a bit of the late Byzantium).

Were you get it that their social structures were superior to that of the West, is unknown to me. Even back then travellers identified the supression of women to be one of the reasons for the lacking productivity of Islamic societies, because they only caused costs, but were not allowed to contribute anything constructive to the community, economy, their potential was and is wasted that way.

In certain fields of science and technolgy and medicine, Islamic world was better educated in the in the medieval, however, it stagnated and did not keep up that advantage, while Europe developed and finally took over and left Islam behind in these fields. also, certain sciences never were allowed in Islam (all sciences and philosophies that had the potential to create alternatives to Qran as only source of explanation).

The thesis that a spreading of hitech and medias would do the trick for moderate Islam keeping fundamentalist Islam in check I find too optimistic. And since I do not differ between moderate and fundamentalist Islam that strictly, I also find the argument somewhat contradictory. It is not about reformation of Islam, but overcoming it and starting an evolution that took europe almost onethousand years. I dozbt that these timespan can be easily bypassed, or cut short, by giving them access to these technologies. more likely it is that they turn them against us (like Islam always turns new ressources against what is Non-Islam).

[Skybird]

This turkish movie currently stirs the pot in Germany:

http://www.valleyofthewolvesiraq.com/web/indexb.htm

It is a most schematic, anti-western orgy of brutality that is depicting a most polarized image of the evil Westerners suppressing and sadistically abusing the poor Muslim victims, and how the Muslim hero, kind of a Turkish Rambo, raises to take bloody revenge. It is basing on true events, the arrest of a dozen Turkish militaries in 2003 or 2004 by American forces.

Such brutal and stuopid propaganda is nothing new, hollywood has produced immense ammounts of such crap itself, with differnt poltical orientation, of course.

Abu Graib produces some immense blowback here.

the film is incredibly popular amonst German Turks. Many especially young ones say it is an adequate description of reality. Also nothing new, many westerners also thought that Rambo 2 and 3 were realistic, too. but at least our governments did not voice such stupidities.

but that a muslim government officially hails such a crap movie and defends it against german protests that want to ban it from german cinemas - that has some meaning in it. It is the oh so European, oh so moderate, West-compatible government of - Turkey.

A heartbraking story of humanity, the offical website says. So be it.

[Takeda Shingen]

I am refering to medieval Europe with my first sentence. I am seprately refering to post-feudal history in my statement about the Ottomans. I should have made that more clear.

Turkish rulers would frequently allow followers of different religions (re: Christianity, Judaism) to practice their faiths while retaining citizenship (albeit minimal). This does drastically differ from European practices at the time, which were much more aggressive. Also, women were little more than property in Europe as well, but where Europe has moderated through history, the Middle East has not.

Note that I said they were more advanced, not advanced.

[Torplexed]

Found this link. It's a compendium of Mohammed images throughout history. (Including Islamic ones.) They may not be satirical cartoons but I think it goes further to show what a hyped-up fraud all this recent muslim outrage has been. Unless there is some sort of statue of limitations on drawing Mohammed.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Skybird

... Im still waiting for western Muslims to hold remembrance ceremonies for those slaughtered children, or Muslims protesting against the violence with as much enthusiasm, endurance and energy as they use to display when protesting against a five months-old cartoon.

Maybe I expect too much.

I'll join you waiting (in vain).
Let's share our patience, we'll need it...

[Takeda Shingen]

Oh great. Thanks, Torplexed, now I've got the cartoons on my machine, which means that I am now fair game for the terrorists. Want to start my car up for me tomorrow?

[TteFAboB]

Mohammed is HOT!

At least they seem to be using a sharp sword, to be able to chop the head off before the body falls to the ground. If only modern beheaders who behead infidels in the name of Islam followed this drawing as a guide-line, there's only one problem though, which one of them will set himself on fire?

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Oh great. Thanks, Torplexed, now I've got the cartoons on my machine, which means that I am now fair game for the terrorists. Want to start my car up for me tomorrow?

If it doesn't blow up can I keep it? It's a long trip back to Seattle.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

If it doesn't blow up can I keep it? It's a long trip back to Seattle.

That depends on what you're driving.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That depends on what you're driving.

Ahh...you'll love my car Tak. It's a classic in a beautiful shade of burgundy...ish red. Low mileage by any astronomical terms. It also has the much sought after feature of having been pre-bombed by terrorists. (probably because of a vaguely inflammatory statement on the door) Only wish I knew what the blue book value was.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Ahh...you'll love my car Tak. It's a classic in a beautiful shade of burgundy...ish red. Low mileage by any astronomical terms. It also has the much sought after feature of having been pre-bombed by terrorists. (probably because of a vaguely inflammatory statement on the door) Only wish I knew what the blue book value was.

Nice :rotfl:

[AG124]

What model and year of car is that? Is it in good enough condition for restoration? The body looks alright anyway.

(I'm assuming that's actually yours, and not a picture you found on the internet).