Back in the Hunt

[Gryffon300]

Hello everyone. I'm back. It's been a couple of years since I had a machine that could run SH. Well, the gods have smiled and I've got me a nice HP m6 Pavilion Notebook (I Core i5 @ 2.5GHz 8GB memory with Radeon HD 7670M - I know - its far from the latest spec - but I wanted Windows 7, not W8. Call me a Luddite upgrading from XP pro).

I have enjoyed SH I, II & III - but they are all still back in Canada, so I installed SH IV, with U-Boat upgrade. All going well, but I have some SH IV noob questions:
- I don't think any of the links to Legion's Noob Guide are still current (including at post number 15 which is supposed to be a download). If so, not much point leaving it on as a sticky.
- not much in love with the control buttons on the various stations - yellow vs slightly brighter yellow not an instantly obvious indicator as to whether the control is selected as 'active' or not. Suggestions? Mod?
- I understand the pop-up icons in top right for 'Silent'; 'Battle Stations' and 'Submerged', and, occasionally 'Warning' (that's all I've encountered so far), but I have some issues with Crew Management and, more generally, Duty Stations. Unlike previous versions where I could see 'obvious' moves, there seem some odd things. For example, when at Battle Stations; Submerged, the Deck Gun and AA remain manned! SH III didn't do that... Other than turning Battle Stations off, any way to better manage fatigue? (Transferring a 'fresh' swabbie to replace a 'zzzz'ding crew member, immediately converts the 'fresh' guy to a snoozer. WT?
- I've installed JSGME - any suggestions for 'must have' mods?
- Is Commander compatible? If so, do most use it?

Thanks all (great to see so many familiar names still active!)

[TorpX]

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

I'm not sure about the control buttons mod thing. I usually just use the F keys myself.

About crew management; while you have to drag men to the gun stations, almost everything else is automatic. You shouldn't leave your men at battlestations for a lengthy period. During routine ops, the shifts will rotate by themselves. You don't have to constantly deal with fatigue problems.

There is no "Commander" for SH4.

For mods, I use RFB and RSRDC. RFB is a mega-mod that aims to make gameplay as realistic as possible. RSRDC is a campaign traffic mod that scripts traffic to historical patterns.

There is also FOTRS, GFO, OM, and last but not least, TMO.

I'm sure you'll get lots of advice about what mods to use.

[Red October1984]

The Crew Management is done in 3 watches.

Transferring the crew one by one doesnt do anything. You're just re-assigning watches when you move the crew members up and down on the panel.

Of the 3 watches one is standing, one is on maintenance and one is asleep. You have to assign men from the watch to the deck gun crew and AA Gun crew when you want to man them.

There are separate icons for the duty stations commands. Battlestations springs all 3 watches into action. Nobody is asleep. There are also a couple other buttons to activate Damage Control, AA Gun Crew, and Deck Gun Crew.

Fatigue is managed automatically. The watch changes every 8 hours. The Navy has 3 watches that go 8 hours at a time to cover the whole 24 hours in a day. It's much more efficient than SH3 where you had to drag the individual crewmen.


As far as mods go, I really like TMO.

From my understanding:

RFB (Real Fleet Boats) makes the game as historically accurate as possible. I have not tried this one because I want a more realistic feel (see TMO)

TMO (Trigger Maru Overhauled) increases the difficulty to give it a realistic feel instead of factual realism.

RSRDC (Run Silent Run Deep Campaign) does exactly what TorpX says.

OM (Operation Monsun) is a conversion to German U-boats in all theatres of operation. I personally don't have any interest in this one because we already have a crap-ton of U-boat games. SH2, 3, 5, AotD, etc. However, this is a popular mod.

GFO (Game Fixes Only) only fixes the broken parts of the stock game and doesnt change anything else IIRC. I haven't tried this one since I fell in love with TMO.

FOTRS (Fall of the Rising Sun) I honestly have no idea what that is.

There is also WDAD, BFB, TM, and OTC.

WDAD (We Dive At Dawn) is a conversion to British Submarines

BFB (Battle for the Baltic) is a conversion to Russian Submarines

TM (Traveller's Mod) contains a bunch of realism fixes, damage model fixes, some new features, and ramps up the difficulty a bit more.

OTC (Optical Targeting Correct- I'm not sure exactly what it stands for) fixes the optics. Supposedly there is something wrong with the optics on the Fleet Boats that needed fixing. I play without it...not knowing much about it. I've been meaning to take a better look but I've never gotten around to it.


I think I've covered all the major mods and then some.

Enjoy and Happy Hunting!

[Gryffon300]

Thanks, TorpX & Red Oct. The idea that something could be simpler in the new game is somewhat revolutionary - though, I guess making sure you manage battle stations and battery life is a fair replacement.

Great list of Mods - that's a big help. I can see I'll be downloading for the next few hours....

Then, gotta go and deep six some stuff.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Gryffon300

Thanks, TorpX & Red Oct. The idea that something could be simpler in the new game is somewhat revolutionary - though, I guess making sure you manage battle stations and battery life is a fair replacement.

Great list of Mods - that's a big help. I can see I'll be downloading for the next few hours....

Then, gotta go and deep six some stuff.

Have fun and Happy Hunting!

[Gryffon300]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Have fun and Happy Hunting!

Thanks, Red. Just got back from my second career patrol ('42 Honshu - default sub etc, 73% Realism) and scored me a Congressional Medal of Honour for being an exceptional me! Good to see someone recognises quality when they see it! It will take a while to get on top of manual TDC and eliminate the map detailing, but some of the mods look like they will up the difficulty level anyway, so I'll continue on to the second base camp, before attempting the final summit climb.

I'll go away and leave you alone now.

Hatches Secure.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Gryffon300

Thanks, Red. Just got back from my second career patrol ('42 Honshu - default sub etc, 73% Realism) and scored me a Congressional Medal of Honour for being an exceptional me! Good to see someone recognises quality when they see it! It will take a while to get on top of manual TDC and eliminate the map detailing, but some of the mods look like they will up the difficulty level anyway, so I'll continue on to the second base camp, before attempting the final summit climb.

I'm assuming that you're playing stock still if you pulled off a MoH.

I play with my realism at about 85... I like my exterior view, I don't know how to manually target, and I don't know how to survive after No Map Contact Update.

I saw a quote on Subsim somewhere. I think it was in somebody's signature. It said "Realism isn't a setting. It's how you play" or something along those lines.

I'll go away and leave you alone now.

You don't need to go away. Ask as many questions as you need. I'll help with whatever I can.

[Stealhead]

Rockin Robbins said that and Sailor Steve has the quote.

It is true really for any game.

I have map contacts on and external views on because I like to watch the action but I do use it to aid me.I run with auto target on about half the time as well.

If you ask me the things that greatly increase the challenge are the ones that make things limited O2,fuel,batteries,not being invincible,realistic senors,realistic repair, all of those turned off make the game much much less challenging.

Really manual targeting is not that hard it is just a matter of enjoying or not enjoying going through all those steps.Learning the steps and their order is the main thing that effects the TDC.Sometimes I just do not want to do all of that crap.Some skippers allowed their XO to man the scope during the attack allowing them to have a better total picture of what is going on both indies the boat and in battle.So my "realism" legitimation in Rockin Robbins "It is how you play" words is that in my boat usually the XO is handling the attack.Map contacts on well I have 4 or 5 enlisted men and NCO's and a few officers in the conning tower all plotting this data down for me/the boat.... a fleet boat is a team of 75 men working together to cause as much damage to the enemy as possiable.

[Gryffon300]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'm assuming that you're playing stock still if you pulled off a MoH.

I play with my realism at about 85... I like my exterior view, I don't know how to manually target, and I don't know how to survive after No Map Contact Update.

I saw a quote on Subsim somewhere. I think it was in somebody's signature. It said "Realism isn't a setting. It's how you play" or something along those lines.

Thank you, Admiral.
Yep, still stock - I couldn't apply any of the Mods until back from this cruise. Now I'm in a Smorgasbord quandary. What to try first? Decisions, decisions....

So, you are spot on. I certainly didn't expect to be Medalled so soon! This early in the war, maybe the AI on the destroyer screen is not as competent - evasion wasn't too hard. In addition, all of the aircraft bombing runs went long, and there were no Kamikazi attempts by the shot-downs, so it was pretty easy by comparison. It seemed way too easy for my AI to shoot them down, and there were a hell of a lot of them, so by the end of the cruise, I didn't bother diving - just put a good guy on the guns, go to flank, and try to get perpendicular to their attack-run (so Gunny could get at them coming and going, as well as giving them a narrow target).

I read that some of the mods reduce the generation of air (but make them more accurate, I believe), which will be all good.

I am looking forward to more realistic map-tracking. Some balance between showing none and almost all should be better and, as you say, more realistic. I suspect our play philosophy and 'native' level are intuitively about the same. Once I know my way around the systems in this game, I'll be fascinated to compare notes.

Tight Hatches.

[Gryffon300]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Rockin Robbins said that and Sailor Steve has the quote.

It is true really for any game.

Agree very much with your philosophy. I like to be able to do everything myself, so I understand and can appreciate what is involved, and make judgements about the information given. BUT, like you, I don't feel obligated to do everything, all the time: that's what we have a crew for!

I play with camera disabled, but will occasionally pop up on the event camera to see the Pretty Fireworks when the torps hit. (I have been caught a few times lingering too long on the scope to watch the hit rather than diving to get below the thermocline.)

The one 'realism' issue that worried me in the stack game was that although 'limited fuel' was checked, the fuel level never moved for the entire cruise - hopefully a mod will 'fix' that. I also had a weird 'CO2' over 10 % warning that I couldn't shift (even though I was surfaced). Although I tried a couple of dive cycles, only saving and exiting cleared it.

So, on to a modded version. Which to choose? Which to choose?!!! (I tried GFO with Order Bar patch and couldn't see any differences, though I have just loaded it with TMO, and that seems to have applied perfectly - got to go wet a snorkel!

Tight Hatches.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

If you ask me the things that greatly increase the challenge are the ones that make things limited O2,fuel,batteries,not being invincible,realistic senors,realistic repair, all of those turned off make the game much much less challenging.

+1 I agree

Really manual targeting is not that hard it is just a matter of enjoying or not enjoying going through all those steps.Learning the steps and their order is the main thing that effects the TDC.Sometimes I just do not want to do all of that crap.Some skippers allowed their XO to man the scope during the attack allowing them to have a better total picture of what is going on both indies the boat and in battle.So my "realism" legitimation in Rockin Robbins "It is how you play" words is that in my boat usually the XO is handling the attack.Map contacts on well I have 4 or 5 enlisted men and NCO's and a few officers in the conning tower all plotting this data down for me/the boat.... a fleet boat is a team of 75 men working together to cause as much damage to the enemy as possiable.

I would learn manual targeting...but like you say the XO would man the scope sometimes. As a captain, I would have people who could do the manual targeting for me. The Fleet Boat TDC had the position keeper that updated itself. I'm not sure exactly how it works...but essentially if my thinking is correct IRL you have somebody feeding the data to another who is working the TDC with me, the captain, giving orders.

That's why I feel Manual Targeting isn't needed in my game. Same with Map Contact Update. I would have people for that as a Captain.

Originally Posted by Gryffon300

What to try first? Decisions, decisions....

Me personally? I highly recommend TMO with RSRDC and Traveller's Mod installed over it. It keeps the realistic feel of TMO while not sacrificing historical accuracy as much as say, GFO.

So, you are spot on. I certainly didn't expect to be Medalled so soon! This early in the war, maybe the AI on the destroyer screen is not as competent - evasion wasn't too hard. In addition, all of the aircraft bombing runs went long, and there were no Kamikazi attempts by the shot-downs, so it was pretty easy by comparison. It seemed way too easy for my AI to shoot them down, and there were a hell of a lot of them, so by the end of the cruise, I didn't bother diving - just put a good guy on the guns, go to flank, and try to get perpendicular to their attack-run (so Gunny could get at them coming and going, as well as giving them a narrow target).

Kamikaze was a late-war thing the Japanese did as a last-ditch effort.

And IIRC the Japanese didn't have much in the way of Sonar Technology in the early years of the war. And if you're playing stock, it's basically "Turkey Shoot in the South Pacific" instead of Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific.

IRL there is no way you'd be able to attack an escorted ship (or even a merchant...it just might be a Q-Ship. ) on the surface with guns. You'd take too much damage. Yes, I've done it successfully in the modded game with a Gar class but that's not important. Neither is the fact that I took on a small task force in a Narwhal and made it out alive... I wasn't alive for long in either scenario. In my experience with Stock, you can do whatever the hell you want in the game. The first time I played the game modded, it was a challenge to go after two destroyers and a light cruiser in an S-boat out of Manila. It was FUN too! TMO ramps up the difficulty (aided by RSRDC and Traveller's Mod) to give you the state of mind that you are the captain. Should I attack this convoy? Can I realistically do it with good chances of survival? Should I just report this to command and wait for an intercepting force? Stuff like that.

I am looking forward to more realistic map-tracking. Some balance between showing none and almost all should be better and, as you say, more realistic. I suspect our play philosophy and 'native' level are intuitively about the same. Once I know my way around the systems in this game, I'll be fascinated to compare notes.

You can read my theory once again. IRL you would have people for that. Of course, there should be a little less information on the map than what is there. It should take a bit of time to get some of that information.

Once again, it's how you play.

Originally Posted by Gryffon300

I play with camera disabled, but will occasionally pop up on the event camera to see the Pretty Fireworks when the torps hit. (I have been caught a few times lingering too long on the scope to watch the hit rather than diving to get below the thermocline.)

That's what happens when you get caught spectating. It's happened to all of us.

The one 'realism' issue that worried me in the stack game was that although 'limited fuel' was checked, the fuel level never moved for the entire cruise - hopefully a mod will 'fix' that. I also had a weird 'CO2' over 10 % warning that I couldn't shift (even though I was surfaced). Although I tried a couple of dive cycles, only saving and exiting cleared it.

Well how far were you going? Fuel consumption has a few different factors that contribute here. Running at Ahead Standard won't leave you enough fuel oil to get back home after reaching your patrol area. That's a lesson I learned quickly when I first started playing SH4. I had been used to SH3 where running at 15 knots on the surface was fine and dandy with more than enough fuel to return home. I've found that if you watch how much time you spend on-station running at 10 knots (Ahead 2/3 for Fleet Boats; Better run at 6 knots in an S-Boat) will get you where you need to go and you have enough fuel to get home. Of course 90% of my patrols take place in the South China Sea, SLOT, and South Pacific areas. I haven't spent much time seriously patrolling the Home Waters of the Empire of Japan...

Something about Bungo Pete....

So, on to a modded version. Which to choose? Which to choose?!!! (I tried GFO with Order Bar patch and couldn't see any differences, though I have just loaded it with TMO, and that seems to have applied perfectly - got to go wet a snorkel!

Give TMO, RSRDC, and TM a try. It's my preferred mod choice. After that, it's up to you.

Tight Hatches.

Don't forget to shut the Main Induction Vent and secure the diesels.

[TorpX]

... although 'limited fuel' was checked, the fuel level never moved for the entire cruise ...

Did you input the realism options from the "office radio"? The general game options you select don't apply to careers.




Good luck and good hunting.

[MarkCt]

I think a lot of us like TMO. It's a really fun and challenging mod. It fixes almost all the problems with the stock game. Your next mod should be TMO with RSRDC. With those two you'll learn a lot of history about the war In the pacific.

[Gryffon300]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Did you input the realism options from the "office radio"? The general game options you select don't apply to careers.

Ahhh. There's a thought. I'll give that a look.

I've just had a quick run on TMO - much nicer - a few more surprises though (like cruising along at over 1000 time compression and suddenly, I've got damage to the 'bow tubes' (when Damage Control showed stern tube damage)). Had a look on the map to see a plane heading away well over the horizon! Bloody lookouts. I think I'll keel-haul the bastards.

With 11% hull damage I went on and took out 3 Marus with deck gun. Took a lot more hits (up to 77%) in order to establish that 3-4,000 is relatively safe, but closer gets too hot; the AI is fairly inaccurate (compared to me, except that I had to keep going to bridge binos to confirm range), but that at night, at 3,000+, with little moon, the magnification on the deck gun optics makes the target too hard to see (even if on fire).

Yep, I know that the Kamakazi phenomenon was a desperation move, but, come on, these guys (about 10 by the end of the cruise) were dropping in the sea all around me and only 2 bailed. So, they can't all have been dead, and some were just on fire and seemed more or less under control. Where was the Samurai Spirit? Bushido can be a great motivator, I'm told.

What else? Oh, yeh. The fuel range thing - running from Pearl to Honshu (near Bungo) at Standard should have seen the gauge move. Although I est Game characteristics within the game under the options selector, all the others selected worked (limited compressed; CO2 etc). I'll try the office radio, once I've added the RSRDC & Traveller. So far so good. Thanks gentlemen, for all your encouraging input - I feel right at home.

(Yep,salt water down the throat of a diesel can be interesting!)

T H

[Gryffon300]

One strange and interesting thing happened on the way to the ward-room...
After installing TMO, my medal got stolen! Well, on the other hand, the thief left behind a Navy Cross in exchange for my Congressional Medal of Honour, and it still says some very flattering things (aggression; best traditions of the service yadda, yadda, yadda), so I guess it was a fair exchange.