Hey look! the FBI and NSA are data-mining and analyzing your data!

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

Does that cancel out the other quote then as all of the various dictatorship feudalism communitarian utopias Sky pushes have been tried from time to time and have been found to be crap?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So, basically, nationstates as a whole would cease to exist, becoming instead a massive series of states at a town or village level. A survivalists wet dream perhaps, but about as practical as a cheese sword and it would essentially last about a year (if that) before a group of towns banded together to form a small nation to pool their resources and conquer other towns. You see, we've been there before and it didn't work then either, that's how nations were formed, doesn't anyone play civilization anymore?

This isn't directed at you, Takeda, by the way, I suspect that you know this anyway, but it's in response to your response...if that makes sense.

Basically, yeah, that is the fly in the ointment. Communities "must be kept as small as possible", but without a regulatory body to keep this from happening, what will stop a group of little states from forming a super state and absorbing their neighbors again?

[MH]

In a democracy, people get the government they deserve

Nothing like witty quotes....

[Sailor Steve]

And that was nothing like a witty quote.

Actually it was quite good. I just couldn't resist the old joke.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Basically, yeah, that is the fly in the ointment. Communities "must be kept as small as possible", but without a regulatory body to keep this from happening, what will stop a group of little states from forming a super state and absorbing their neighbors again?

And conversely, if you create that regulatory body you have to give it the power to make it stick, therefore creating the very superstate you were trying to avoid, and so on...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So how does anything get done on a national level in a state of no government?

In principle in the way you deal with people in your life without the state needing to tell you how to do it (although it regulates your life more and more).

We have been there some weeks ago, and I summarized it as best as could, and still incomplete. Obviously it is something not that easy to talk while standing in the door, leaving. I can only advise to read some literature on the matter,it is by far not as hair-.raising or insane as I may sound in your ears. According links I have given many times by now, but I do again below if you have missed them. My thinking has shifted massively on these issues in the past two years, and prepared to do that shift already earlier, since 2008 when the events back then forced me to realise that my previous assumptions about the wonderful democracy obviously are seriously misled if thy lead to such disastrous results as we see unfolding. The classical school of liberalism (european understanding, what they call libertarianism in America now to differ it from American liberalism meaning socialism) has plenty to do with it, as well as the Austrian school of economics. Names to mention are Menger, von Mises, Murray Rothbard, Hayek, Hoppe, to name just a few. Their idea of liberalism and economics in fact is not that new, and currently not represented in politics of the represent - the so-called European liberals are a carricature of true liberalism and in fact abuse the term every time they mention it, but stick to concept that secure their political power and are rightout as socialist as those concept of appranertly every other major European party these days.

Additionally to the two books I just recommended above on this thread, one of which is available in English, I recommend this English-language archive of a rich - and free! literature, specially by the universal genius of Murray rothbard and the most forceful Hans Herrmann Hoppe. In German, I could give you some more book-links and authors and websites.

Free download of the full books, both of which are classic and are held in very high esteem by those intellectually examining and being busy with the matter of money, and liberty&liberalism, both by Murray rothbard:

LINK: What has government done to our money? - The best explanation, easy to understand, that I ever read on the question of what money is, what it used to be and should be - and what it has been turned into in intentional destruction of real money.

LINK: The Ethics of Libert - A profound analysis, chapter by chapter adressing all kinds of questions on how to define loberty in this and that situation and context. Do yourself a favour and check the context list.

Needless to say I read both books^ in German. These are very essential readings for people who really want to know about what liberty is and how it can only function in what social context. The full books, and all for free, legally - what else can you want? Cheap and short and easy answers presented to you in form of a toffee on a silver plate, easy to consume so that you must not spend some time for thinking about it yourself...? (not meaning you personally, Oberon, but generally speaking)

LINK: Their full library of Rothbard

LINK: Their full library for Hoppe

And another link-list:
LINK

LINK Their library, total overview on authors. So much there is free, free, free! Choose authors via the "author" tab. There are so many!

And as already mentioned before, some weeks ago, the most consistent and unforgiving book by Hoppe: LINK-Democracy. The God that failed. An unforgiving final judgement of a concept that until just 100 years not only was not widely spread, but had an extremely unfavourable, negative reputation, since the Ancient Greek, and for very good reasons that already were known to the ancient Greeks.

And again, the book by Minogue that I already linked to earlier in the thread. Check it out, its a good book by an angry old but well-educated man. "Servility" often is the term in which I think of people's attitude towards the modern state.

For the German readers: more sites and material there, posted once again:

http://wertewirtschaft.org/

http://detlevschlichter.com/

http://www.misesde.org/

I know democracy is the golden cow of politics today. And I slaughter it mercielssly, for it is indeed just this: a golden cow to keep the people under control, to keep them silent and obedient. But it ruins our societies, it destroys our economic and financial basis, and kills or freedom and self-responsibility, our dignity and our ability to live a self-determined life. And it always necessarily must lead to socialism and communism, and to an ever stronger centralist government turning into a dictatorship. The opposite of socialism is not democracy. Both are different phases of the same thing. The opposite to both is freedom.

Guys, your societies and countries get underminded under your feet, your lifes get sold out, and still you believe them their old semrons and doctrine that brought you there and that have just one purpose: top keep you unaware, uncaring, and thinking that the worst can be avoided. That is the mindless atttitude of cattle not knwoing that the butcher is already there. Stop dance around the golden cow. It is not devine, it just is a golden idol. Its is not even massive gold, but just hollow, of wood, painted yellow. what makes freedom rotting and sees it destroyed - you help to push forward and keep alive, turning you into accomplice in your own and our fall and enslavement. Your sin is your engagement for the wrong thing, your sin is your easy and careless trust, the growing power of the tyranny is the weakness you accept to live in.

From the perspective of the above linked materials, it all falls into place: the EUZ, the Euro, the destruction of political legitimation even within the demcoartic contexts, relation between politicians and the canaille mutually abusing each other but by doing so ruining the future for both of them in the end. It is not only consistent and just different features of one and the same image - I do even claim that it necessarily cannot go any other way in the context of the societies that formed up in the past 100 - 200 years, and a bit earlier.

I do not link German books. First, I did that before, second, so any Germany are not around here. I'm sure there are English pendants to such books that I am not aware of. Why reading English when the same thing or comparable stuff is available in my own mother tongue. German authors names to look out for would be Andreas Baader (not the RAF guy), Detlev Schlichter, Christoph Braunschweig, to name just three.

All people: the material is all laid out before you - that, and so much more, if only you would ind to investigate. Stuff for thought. You can continue to hate me or laugh about and ridicule me or like Takeda try to turn words in my mouth or mutilate the meaning - or start to finally quit nagging me, and get some really qualified education on the matter yourself - by starting with reading two or three of the suggested things. But do not hold me responsible for your own laziness. Some of you complain when I produce "walls of text", and when I do not do that and cut it short and give only a general indication, you complain again. It seesm the real reason is that the message itself is not welcomed, I think. Attacking democracy? Slaughtering the golden cow of Western self-understanding? Blasphemous!

You have been born with eyes to read and minds to think. So the hell use them. Get two or three books. Works wonders. You must not even agree with everything - just to see that what you have come to take as granted and natural, is not that natural at all and can be easily and fundamentally put in question, would be an improvement. Or be lazy, delegate your responsibility to those higher in the food chain, and leave it to just making a cross on an election ticket. You will be the obedient submissive sheep that way that they expect you to be.

Not meaning you personally, Oberon.

[Ducimus]

George Orwell, author or prophet?

All people: the material is all laid out before you - that, and so much more, if only you would ind to investigate.

Same material as last time, it's still nonsense.
No matter how many times it is posted it will still remain fundamentally flawed in the most obvious manner.

[Ducimus]

Yup, this story is really making the rounds now.

The NSA information collection scandal and what it means for Utahns

I'll bet a lot of people here are REALLY wondering about that NSA data center here in Utah now.

[soopaman2]

So is this partisan blame, or a a-hole government as a whole?

As much as I would like to mash one clear person on this, I feel it is institutional, and much like the stealth bomber, been around longer than we had awareness to it.

Silly. I take nothing partisan from this, it only affirms my belief of the firm need for a constitutional convention, and a purge of the house and congress.


They all act as if they did not know, hoping someone (the president) takes the bullet for everyones conspiracy.

For Legislative bodies to all of a sudden act outraged at this, when the crap they pulled far outweighs this....sad, on many levels.

I still want to know why they get free healthcare when they wish to abolish the same benefit to the poorer american??


This is what happens when the extortion money does not go where it is supposed to, scandal....

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

All people: the material is all laid out before you - that, and so much more, if only you would ind to investigate. Stuff for thought. You can continue to hate me or laugh about and ridicule me or like Takeda try to turn words in my mouth or mutilate the meaning - or start to finally quit nagging me, and get some really qualified education on the matter yourself - by starting with reading two or three of the suggested things. But do not hold me responsible for your own laziness. Some of you complain when I produce "walls of text", and when I do not do that and cut it short and give only a general indication, you complain again. It seesm the real reason is that the message itself is not welcomed, I think. Attacking democracy? Slaughtering the golden cow of Western self-understanding? Blasphemous!

The thing is, you don't argue anything. Your response is to point hysterically at the failings of the current system, largely due to the fact that you cannot point to how the system that you propose would function in a remotely effective manner. Then you have the arrogance to sit back and haughtily proclaim me lazy for pointing out those failings, while it is actually your approach that is intellectually lazy. What you are doing is promoting the replacement of a system that does not work well with a system that doesn't work at all in what appears to be a very shallow attempt to get back at people and groups that you don't like. To return to the blocks analogy, it is like a child that gets back at another by knocking over the tower.

You have been born with eyes to read and minds to think. So the hell use them. Get two or three books. Works wonders. You must not even agree with everything - just to see that what you have come to take as granted and natural, is not that natural at all and can be easily and fundamentally put in question, would be an improvement. Or be lazy, delegate your responsibility to those higher in the food chain, and leave it to just making a cross on an election ticket. You will be the obedient submissive sheep that way that they expect you to be.

Not meaning you personally, Oberon.

No, it was clearly meant for me. I would suggest that he use some of that self-proclaimed intellectual superiority and examine his own words and theories, not blindly cling to them like one hangs onto the mast when the ship begins to sink.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

So is this partisan blame, or a a-hole government as a whole?

As much as I would like to mash one clear person on this, I feel it is institutional, and much like the stealth bomber, been around longer than we had awareness to it.

I would agree with your assessment that this is institutional. I don't think there is any one party or political ideology to blame, only human nature. When people are allowed some power or authority, they almost inevitably abuse it. Especially when they are not, or can not, be held accountable, or face repercussions for their actions.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

George Orwell, author or prophet?

Prophet

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I would agree with your assessment that this is institutional. I don't think there is any one party or political ideology to blame, only human nature. When people are allowed some power or authority, they almost inevitably abuse it. Especially when they are not, or can not, be held accountable, or face repercussions for their actions.

My thoughts exactly, some are worse than others but but it's the "political class" as a whole. The Governor of my home state(Florida) just removed the Liberty County Sheriff from office and had him arrested, for what? Standing up for second amendment rights.Governor Scott had seemed like one of the good guys, but apparently not.

[danasan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducimus
George Orwell, author or prophet?

Prophet /quote

realist