Not Your Grand Mothers Crew Management Mod 1.1 - Released

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Tikigod

Teddy do CO2 levels effect crew efficiency in your mod? is there a way to add it if it doesn't? I'd like to see the crew get more exhausted as the levels get high into the danger levels....as I asked above.....haven't got any response to post yet...thanks.

I cannot answer that, I'll see if I can get an answer. However, CO2 is probably not only a until it is out 'item'.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

I cannot answer that, I'll see if I can get an answer. However, CO2 is probably not only a until it is out 'item'.

CO2 is not modeled, and I'm not sure it's possible to model this behavior.

[Tikigod]

CO2 is not modeled, and I'm not sure it's possible to model this behavior.

What kills the crew then? just if CO2 reaches end, crew = dead? I thought after so many minutes in the extreme right of gauge some of them start to die off and then it trickles down until they all die. or does it all happen at once? if it trickles there has to be values associated with each of the units and if that is the case it might have a value for how efficienct they are.

[Tikigod]

Can this mod go over RUB 1.45 and Harbor Traffic? or will it break them? I get this with jsgme

"Basic.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_II_1.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_II_2.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_II_3.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_IX_1.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_IX_2.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_IX_3.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_VII_1.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_VII_2.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"crew_config_VII_3.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"Sim.cfg" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"en_menu.txt" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"en_menu.txt" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"en_menu.txt" has already been altered by the "integrated_orders were only added" mod.
"crew_sign.tga" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"NSS_Uboat2A.sim" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"NSS_Uboat7c.sim" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"NSS_Uboat9b.sim" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"NSS_Uboat9c.sim" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.
"NSS_Uboat9d2.sim" has already been altered by the "RUb1.45" mod.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Tikigod

What kills the crew then? just if CO2 reaches end, crew = dead? I thought after so many minutes in the extreme right of gauge some of them start to die off and then it trickles down until they all die. or does it all happen at once? if it trickles there has to be values associated with each of the units and if that is the case it might have a value for how efficienct they are.

I think you just get the "You are dead" screen once the CO2 gage is all the way to the right. There is no value in the basic.cfg to control the rate of increase or decrease per crew member. This value may (and probably is) contained in some of the other files, but I'm not sure where, and to be honest, I haven't looked for it.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Tikigod

Can this mod go over RUB 1.45 and Harbor Traffic? or will it break them? I get this with jsgme

The only one that may be a problem is en_menu.txt. The changes to this file are not significant, so I would suggest just deleting it. If you use SH3 Commander and you've installed the updated files, you will still get the en_menu.txt changes.

[Tikigod]

Do I NEED to install all the above or can I just run only the cfg in Commander? I'm still testing each of them out to see what I like. I'm just curious to what all the above does.....

[lafeeverted]

Just finished a patrol and getting ready to load the NYGCMM. i was looking over the values of Fatigue Coef and noticed that the values for the crew quarters/recovery compartments are positive, rather than a negative number allowing for "rest". Is this addressed in other values that allow for recovery?


I have never thought that the handling of the torpedo rooms as stations that inflict a much higher "fatigue" on a player to be accurate. All fatigue model state to keep crew out of these rooms whenever possible due to the hits they will take.Perhaps becuase of game limitations or to make it more challenging they have been modelled this way. it is true that these rooms involved more physical labor, especially in times of engagement.Daily torpedo maintanence was a factor as well. However, the torp room crews(lords/mixers"???) would have been accustomed to the work. The heavy work of reloading tubes would become routine. For example, a long distance runner could do a lap around the track and not be very tired and recover quickly. An untrained person would be quite tired and not recover quickly after that same lap. It makes more sense to me to have the torp stations incur a slightly higher hit than the helm station for instance but not make it a penalty to be in the room for an extended period of time. In times of engagement, the stress level would be high among all stations, not necessarily higher in the torp room.This would also aid a bit in overall crew management in that crew members could be moved to the torp rooms in times of non-combat,simulating routine maintanence allowing for other crew members to be moved into recovery quarters.


Remebering the lengthy discussion from SH2 on torpedo reload times ....I would like mine to fall into a range of 7-15 minutes.If I find that I am not satisfied with the NYGCMM values, which files need to be adjusted? Is it the torpedo file within each "subtype".sim, any other values that would need to be altered?


Thakns for all the works on this mod. I have been following it from the first announcement. looking forward to the final Tonnage Mod

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Tikigod

Do I NEED to install all the above or can I just run only the cfg in Commander? I'm still testing each of them out to see what I like. I'm just curious to what all the above does.....

Yes. Obviously you need the basic.cfg. The crew configs are all altered and you will need them for new patrols and single missions. The sim.cfg values have been changes to take into account crew fatigue effects on sensors. There is a new symbol for min efficiency crew members, and I've changes the torpedo load times.

To summarize, yes, you need all of the files. This mod is a vast departure from the few random tweaks made to the basic.cfg in the past, and all of the files work together to give the appropriate effects.

[Tikigod]

sweet! thanks alot observer....I really can see the difference now!

[Observer]

Originally Posted by lafeeverted

Just finished a patrol and getting ready to load the NYGCMM. i was looking over the values of Fatigue Coef and noticed that the values for the crew quarters/recovery compartments are positive, rather than a negative number allowing for "rest". Is this addressed in other values that allow for recovery?

The recovery rate for bow and stern compartments is a positive number. The "recovery" part is hardcoded. Change the sign to negative and crew members will fatigue in rest compartments.

I have never thought that the handling of the torpedo rooms as stations that inflict a much higher "fatigue" on a player to be accurate. All fatigue model state to keep crew out of these rooms whenever possible due to the hits they will take.Perhaps becuase of game limitations or to make it more challenging they have been modelled this way. it is true that these rooms involved more physical labor, especially in times of engagement.Daily torpedo maintanence was a factor as well. However, the torp room crews(lords/mixers"???) would have been accustomed to the work. The heavy work of reloading tubes would become routine. For example, a long distance runner could do a lap around the track and not be very tired and recover quickly. An untrained person would be quite tired and not recover quickly after that same lap. It makes more sense to me to have the torp stations incur a slightly higher hit than the helm station for instance but not make it a penalty to be in the room for an extended period of time. In times of engagement, the stress level would be high among all stations, not necessarily higher in the torp room.This would also aid a bit in overall crew management in that crew members could be moved to the torp rooms in times of non-combat,simulating routine maintanence allowing for other crew members to be moved into recovery quarters.

That sounds great. It's not possible with the model used in SH3. You get one fatigue rate per compartment, surfaced or submerged that applies equally to all ranks. This fatigue rate is exactly the same, all of the time, except in storms. That's all. It's a limitation of the system in which we work.

Remebering the lengthy discussion from SH2 on torpedo reload times ....I would like mine to fall into a range of 7-15 minutes.If I find that I am not satisfied with the NYGCMM values, which files need to be adjusted? Is it the torpedo file within each "subtype".sim, any other values that would need to be altered?

Torpedo load times work like this in SH3: (Assume the slowest reload time is 30 min)

Slowest time: 30 min
Middle time: 15 min
Fast time: 10 min

To put this in terms of an equation:

Middle time = 1/2 slow time
Fast time = 1/2 slow time - 5 min

The only way to achieve the fastest torpedo load time is to have compartment efficiency at max. After compartment efficiency drops below max, you will load torpedoes at the middle time, until you drop below the middle (66%) compartment efficiency, then you will load torpedoes at the slow speed until you go below the low (33%) compartment efficiency.

The minimum compartment efficiency must allow crews at minimum morale the ability to load torpedoes. This set the low compartment efficiency value, and gives crews at min morale 1 hour of torpedo load time.

The NYGM CMM is designed to give full morale, full efficiency crews 1 hour of torpedo load time at the middle speed. The fast speed is not used, and the max compartment efficiency is set high enough to make it impossible to achieve. The crew may then continue to load torpedoes at the slow speed until going below the min compartment efficiency.

The rate of efficiency loss is the same for max morale and min morale crews. The goal was to get an average torpedo load time of about 15 minutes. As you can see, the bow torpedo room already has four cases (1. Max morale, max efficiency, 2. Min morale and max efficiency, 3. Max morale, min compartment efficiency, 4. min morale, min compartment efficiency), and four unknowns (33% compartment efficiency, 66% compartment efficiency, efficiency loss rate and crew configuration - there's actually a near infinite amount of crew configurations).

Oh and these values are also used for external torpedo loads, with the constraint being 10 crew members to load internal weapons and 14 to load external weapons.

As you can see, this is not an easy problem to solve. What you have in the NYGM CMM is the result of compromises with the existing system using the constraints outlined above. It may not be perfect, but it's as close as you are going to get to a reasonable average for a full set of reloads on a Type VII or IX. If you set the slow torpedo load time to 15 minutes, the middle load time will be half of that. I think 7 minutes is too fast to load torpedoes. Our values are based on the average time to load a full set of warshots in the bow tubes. It varies between 44 and 55 minutes depending on crew quality.

Oh and by the way, the stern torpedo room is more difficult because the requirements on this room are set by those of the engine room. This is because SH3 defines rooms based on the number of crew members in the room, therefore the Type VII stern torpedo room is the same as the Type II engine room and the Type IX stern torpedo room is the same as the Type VII/IX engine rooms.

Thakns for all the works on this mod. I have been following it from the first announcement. looking forward to the final Tonnage Mod

Hope that helps.

[lafeeverted]

Thanks for the explanation of questions I raised. I knew there were certainly limitations on what could be done within SH3. looking forward to starting a new patrol.

[lafeeverted]

Starting a new patrol/existing campaign. I get a "Too many sailors" warning. I am supposed to dismiss sailors and replace them with PO's? I have open slots for PO's.

Using a 7B, january 1940

[CCIP]

Observer - why the crew limit? I'd noted that by late war, historical crew sizes tended to be larger (due to new equipment), with many type IX boats having as many as 56 men aboard. Isn't the mod a little too restrictive in this regard?

That said, it's quite easy to change the maximum limits in basic.cfg...

[Observer]

Two reasons. First, is the limited number of rest positions, which cannot be changed and makes excessively large crews more cumbersome to manage, even with the neutral zone which has its own quirks. In my opinion this cumbersomeness crosses the border between management and tedium. Second, the default crews were just a little too big compared to the historical records I looked at. We also tried to reconcile the number of Warrant officers and seamen to more historical proportions.

To help in this regard, we've changed the crew requirements for the engine rooms and the bow torpedo room. It really doesn't take 6 or 8 crew members to run a pair of marine diesels as the stock game would have you believe. We've reduced it to five, and set up the bow torpedo room so that only 10 crew members are needed to load internal torpedoes.