Waltzing Gorbi

Skybird · 10-15-12, 01:57 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19950670

Christopher meets Michael. I mean Mikha meets Ronny.

Oberon · 10-15-12, 02:21 PM

When Mike met Ronny.

Looks like it might be an interesting film, it was certainly a momentous occasion in the Cold War, the beginning of the end, so to speak.

I wonder if it will be filmed with Gorbie speaking English or Russian? The fact that the talks collapsed at the end will make for a chance to put some drama in it, but ultimately it was the first step on the road to the end.

Thank God we got Gorby and not a hardliner. Although his plans did threaten to collapse Russia completely, and were far ahead of what the Soviet Union was capable of doing, it was better that it end that way than in the chaos of a nuclear war.

CCIP · 10-15-12, 03:30 PM

What always fascinates me is the difference in views on Gorbachev between Russia and the West. The West still seems to be in love with him as a cold-war-stopper and visionary reformist; Russians have never liked him and only like him less over time. He was and remains incredibly unpopular, and (not unfairly) assigned a large part of the blame for the manner in which the USSR broke up, which was a massive (social, economic, political) disaster.

I can certainly respect Gorby's values - never doubted that he was a good man. I think the credit given to him for de-escalating the cold war and trying to bring reform to the USSR is deserved. The problem is that beyond those noble ideals, I don't think there was much substance to him. As a politician and leader, I think I'll have to side with the popular Russian view of him as someone who was unfit for the power that he was given, and ultimately mismanaged it. He in utterly lost control of the situation, at several crucial points, in a manner that was very irresponsible and downright unbecoming of a president, allowing people with not-so-positive interests run the show. All with good intentions, of course, but results that aren't only what most people in the West think them to be.

Oberon · 10-15-12, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

What always fascinates me is the difference in views on Gorbachev between Russia and the West. The West still seems to be in love with him as a cold-war-stopper and visionary reformist; Russians have never liked him and only like him less over time. He was and remains incredibly unpopular, and (not unfairly) assigned a large part of the blame for the manner in which the USSR broke up, which was a massive (social, economic, political) disaster.

I can certainly respect Gorby's values - never doubted that he was a good man. I think the credit given to him for de-escalating the cold war and trying to bring reform to the USSR is deserved. The problem is that beyond those noble ideals, I don't think there was much substance to him. As a politician and leader, I think I'll have to side with the popular Russian view of him as someone who was unfit for the power that he was given, and ultimately mismanaged it. He in utterly lost control of the situation, at several crucial points, in a manner that was very irresponsible and downright unbecoming of a president, allowing people with not-so-positive interests run the show. All with good intentions, of course, but results that aren't only what most people in the West think them to be.

Indeed so, and I understand both viewpoints. He was an idealist, and how he lasted as long as he did I will never know, but I think a lot of people owe their lives to the movement that he started that meant that the Soviet Union didn't react to the changing of the status quo in the Pact nations in the sort of manner that it reacted to Czechoslovakia in 1968. Of course, the opposite can be stated for those who lost their lives in the lost decade that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union, and allowed the further rise of the mafia. However, given how tense things were with Andropov (Able Archer comes to mind) and the revolving door senior senile Soviet leadership before Gorbachev, then I think that it was a good thing he came into power when he did.
Of course, this comes from a western viewpoint, and I can understand those who view him as betraying Russia at a crucial time in her history...however I think the downfall of the creaking apparatus of the Warsaw Pact was inevitable, likewise that of the Soviet Union, and Gorbachev made sure that when it did collapse, it didn't take the world down with it.
I think Russia has rebounded well from the lost decade though, thanks to good oil prices and a nice arms market, and credit where it is due, thanks to careful manoeuvring by Putin and the siloviki, of course they're going in a direction that the west will find disappointing and non-western (such as the 'Pussy Riot' incident) but that is how Russia has always been run, with an iron fist in a velvet glove, with a couple of exceptions (Krushchev also comes to mind) and Russians respect a strong leader, well, those that I've seen on media of course...I cannot speak for every Russian, naturally there are those who cannot abide Putin, and Gorby is probably one of them.

What are your views on Putin CCIP? You have a better insight of Russia than I.

CCIP · 10-15-12, 09:29 PM

Oh gosh, I'm not sure I'm prepared to talk about Putin tonight. Too much to say

I've always been deeply critical of Putin, not without acknowledging his stabilizing influence - but the fact is that I've never thought of Putin as the real power in Russia. Russia has been basically ruled by consensus between several very different factions (that form United Russia) that always had some parallel interests and disagreed on others. They met in the middle and sorted things out behind closed doors. As such, Russia coasted along on a wave of stability for the previous 10 years, which benefitted the tiny elite and kept the rest of the country in poverty. Russia under Putin returned to its usual two-class order (small, incredibly wealthy elite; overwhelming majority of impoverished masses, and not much in between) that was so well-entrenched in the USSR.

I think something very, very disturbing took place in Russia approximately 12-13 months ago, though. I don't even know what, and I'm not sure anyone outside Russia's power circles does - but the nature of the Putin regime has changed drastically. Something broke down in the consensus between the different factions in United Russia, and suddenly virtually all the power is in the hands of very conservative, authoritarian types - chiefly the army and intelligence community. It has been largely ignored in the Western press, and people have only started paying attention when the Pussy Riot story broke (although it isn't even the tip of the iceberg...) The tone of Putin's regime right now worries me a lot. The people who run Russia now have very little regard for civic society as such, and I hate to say it, but the first thought that comes to mind about many recent events in Russia is "it's sure starting to resemble Iran..." So that's my thought on the Putin regime.

As for Gorbi, like I said, I've liked him as a person. The Soviet regime had to fall in any case, and Gorbachev knew that better than almost anyone. He knew he got a tough lot, and he knew he couldn't just sit by and wait idly. I just feel that for all his good intentions, he simply let history happen as the sentiment of the time willed, both when it should have (which were he brilliant moments in the liberation of Eastern Europe) and his darker moments (his sidelining politically, the putsch, and the arbitrary and thoughtless process by which the USSR was disassembled in Belavezha).

Oberon · 10-15-12, 10:30 PM

Well put, Putin has always been a bit of an enigma to me. He weaves a very clever mask and you're not quite sure just what he's going to do next. He's a shrewd man, and seems to have a long term game to bring Russia back as a major power which has been in the planning since his first term.
Certainly though, I agree, something has changed slightly in his third term, the line (already quite hard) has become almost concrete. Before Putin won the elections there was a rumour floating around that he and Medvedev had had a falling out, this makes me wonder if Putin had to turn deeper to the siloviki for assistance in solidifying his third term. Alternatively this could be the beginning of an all out war against the Mafia, he's taken down most organised resistance to government control, he neutralised the oil barons, the monopolists, the moguls, and that just leaves the Mafia, so either he's working with them, or gathering his arsenal to take them down, in which case I wish him luck because he's probably going to need it.
Alternatively it could be the groundwork for some form of change of government, after all it's unlikely he could possibly go for a fourth term and expect to maintain some pretense of a democratic voting system.
Like you say, only the inner circles really know the answer, it's like watching a chess game when you're only able to see one sides pieces.
It's interesting watching the foreign relations of Russia alter over the years since the end of the lost decade, firstly the resumption of the long distance bomber flights, not exactly outlandish, after all we violate their waters quite frequently on the quiet I am sure, but then the whole Litvininko affair, things have cooled quite a bit...although we did do our bit in annoying Russia by giving asylum to several of Putins enemies, including Chechen rebels. I'm sure Putin doesn't want things to dissolve to the point that we get into a new Cold War, but at the same time he wants to push his might in areas he feels he needs to. Syria and Iran, and Russias ties with both do concern me, and I'd wager they concern Washington too, if push comes to shove, will Russia support a nuclear Iran? Will it help defend it?
Interesting times, certainly, almost makes one wish for the simpler times of Reagan and Gorbachevs meeting in Reykjavik.

Skybird · 10-16-12, 06:52 AM

I have reduced my pragmatic support for Putin. Initially I saw him as the guy wanting to bring Russia closer to Europe, in this he was compared by not few people to Alexander the Great, and like Alexander, he failed, in Putins case due to too many betrayals by the West and according disappointment by Putin. His reactions by isolating Russia from Europe, I saw as a consequence from these bad experiences. But in his late years of the recent past, he seems to have turned into a truly oligarchiy old man who guards his powers with eager eyes and who now uses openly crminal and tyrannical tools of intimidation and suppression that go beyond what I pragmatically would have tolerated in order to guarantee stability of Russia, namely in its military. In other words I now list him as an angry and selfish old man who promises to be another of those many old men who just miss the appropriate time to step back and understand that by age their time is over.

But we will need to live with Putin's shadow for years to come, I think that is clear.

One wonders what would have become if NATO and the EU would have played fairly and honestly with Russia from the 90s on. But Washington did not want that. And so we and the Russians got the state of things we have now, and now head for an age of new confrontation, as I see it. The state becomes more corrupt and supressive again. Right the things that Putin >initially< fought back. But now he has become himself part of the gang he initially pushed back.

Unneeded. Completely unneeded.

Initially there was a big chance for a Russian-European merging, at least a closer bridging of differences than ever before. This opportunity is wasted by having wanted too much in the West. A big chance wasted. I see this as a historical tragedy.

Of course the hawks on both sides now say they always knew it. But them and their criminal friends in big business made sure that the failure would become reality. What a rotten breed.

CCIP · 10-16-12, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

One wonders what would have become if NATO and the EU would have played fairly and honestly with Russia from the 90s on. But Washington did not want that. And so we and the Russians got the state of things we have now, and now head for an age of new confrontation, as I see it. The state becomes more corrupt and supressive again. Right the things that Putin >initially< fought back. But now he has become himself part of the gang he initially pushed back.

Unneeded. Completely unneeded.

Initially there was a big chance for a Russian-European merging, at least a closer bridging of differences than ever before. This opportunity is wasted by having wanted too much in the West. A big chance wasted. I see this as a historical tragedy.

I agree wholeheartedly with you there, Skybird. I've been saying this for years. It was a great opportunity wasted by the West, because everybody was too busy celebrating victory in the Cold War and congratulating themselves to care what the continuation of the story was. There was a lot of opportunity for engagement with Russia wasted in the early 90s. By the time Putin was more than a petty city council official though, that opportunity had largely disappeared. The fate of modern Russia and the trajectory it's currently on was arguably sealed by 1993-1994, by the manner in which the economic collapse and the privatization happened (while Western capital looked largely the other way), and the decisive takeover of power by the executive (i.e. presidential) branch in the '93 constitutional crisis, along with other things. Those things already spelled doom for pro-western liberal democracy in Russia. I feel that greater engagement between Europe, the US and Russia to help rebuild it as a modern economy and civic society in the early 90s would've done everybody a lot of good.

MH · 10-16-12, 04:44 PM

Russia has always seen itself as regional superpower.
This is something that the country had been trying to achieve for ages with mixed success.
The 90s was time of transition but the aspiration toward restoring or finally realising this goal was always there.
Also decades of communist rule in Russia cant be simply
brushed away...Putin probably knew it very well judging by his use of election propaganda and general populistic behavior.

10-15-12, 01:57 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Waltzing Gorbi http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19950670 Christopher meets Michael. I mean Mikha meets Ronny. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-15-12, 03:30 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	What always fascinates me is the difference in views on Gorbachev between Russia and the West. The West still seems to be in love with him as a cold-war-stopper and visionary reformist; Russians have never liked him and only like him less over time. He was and remains incredibly unpopular, and (not unfairly) assigned a large part of the blame for the manner in which the USSR broke up, which was a massive (social, economic, political) disaster. I can certainly respect Gorby's values - never doubted that he was a good man. I think the credit given to him for de-escalating the cold war and trying to bring reform to the USSR is deserved. The problem is that beyond those noble ideals, I don't think there was much substance to him. As a politician and leader, I think I'll have to side with the popular Russian view of him as someone who was unfit for the power that he was given, and ultimately mismanaged it. He in utterly lost control of the situation, at several crucial points, in a manner that was very irresponsible and downright unbecoming of a president, allowing people with not-so-positive interests run the show. All with good intentions, of course, but results that aren't only what most people in the West think them to be. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

10-15-12, 09:29 PM	#5
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Oh gosh, I'm not sure I'm prepared to talk about Putin tonight. Too much to say I've always been deeply critical of Putin, not without acknowledging his stabilizing influence - but the fact is that I've never thought of Putin as the real power in Russia. Russia has been basically ruled by consensus between several very different factions (that form United Russia) that always had some parallel interests and disagreed on others. They met in the middle and sorted things out behind closed doors. As such, Russia coasted along on a wave of stability for the previous 10 years, which benefitted the tiny elite and kept the rest of the country in poverty. Russia under Putin returned to its usual two-class order (small, incredibly wealthy elite; overwhelming majority of impoverished masses, and not much in between) that was so well-entrenched in the USSR. I think something very, very disturbing took place in Russia approximately 12-13 months ago, though. I don't even know what, and I'm not sure anyone outside Russia's power circles does - but the nature of the Putin regime has changed drastically. Something broke down in the consensus between the different factions in United Russia, and suddenly virtually all the power is in the hands of very conservative, authoritarian types - chiefly the army and intelligence community. It has been largely ignored in the Western press, and people have only started paying attention when the Pussy Riot story broke (although it isn't even the tip of the iceberg...) The tone of Putin's regime right now worries me a lot. The people who run Russia now have very little regard for civic society as such, and I hate to say it, but the first thought that comes to mind about many recent events in Russia is "it's sure starting to resemble Iran..." So that's my thought on the Putin regime. As for Gorbi, like I said, I've liked him as a person. The Soviet regime had to fall in any case, and Gorbachev knew that better than almost anyone. He knew he got a tough lot, and he knew he couldn't just sit by and wait idly. I just feel that for all his good intentions, he simply let history happen as the sentiment of the time willed, both when it should have (which were he brilliant moments in the liberation of Eastern Europe) and his darker moments (his sidelining politically, the putsch, and the arbitrary and thoughtless process by which the USSR was disassembled in Belavezha). __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

10-16-12, 06:52 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I have reduced my pragmatic support for Putin. Initially I saw him as the guy wanting to bring Russia closer to Europe, in this he was compared by not few people to Alexander the Great, and like Alexander, he failed, in Putins case due to too many betrayals by the West and according disappointment by Putin. His reactions by isolating Russia from Europe, I saw as a consequence from these bad experiences. But in his late years of the recent past, he seems to have turned into a truly oligarchiy old man who guards his powers with eager eyes and who now uses openly crminal and tyrannical tools of intimidation and suppression that go beyond what I pragmatically would have tolerated in order to guarantee stability of Russia, namely in its military. In other words I now list him as an angry and selfish old man who promises to be another of those many old men who just miss the appropriate time to step back and understand that by age their time is over. But we will need to live with Putin's shadow for years to come, I think that is clear. One wonders what would have become if NATO and the EU would have played fairly and honestly with Russia from the 90s on. But Washington did not want that. And so we and the Russians got the state of things we have now, and now head for an age of new confrontation, as I see it. The state becomes more corrupt and supressive again. Right the things that Putin >initially< fought back. But now he has become himself part of the gang he initially pushed back. Unneeded. Completely unneeded. Initially there was a big chance for a Russian-European merging, at least a closer bridging of differences than ever before. This opportunity is wasted by having wanted too much in the West. A big chance wasted. I see this as a historical tragedy. Of course the hawks on both sides now say they always knew it. But them and their criminal friends in big business made sure that the failure would become reality. What a rotten breed. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-15-12, 02:21 PM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	When Mike met Ronny. Looks like it might be an interesting film, it was certainly a momentous occasion in the Cold War, the beginning of the end, so to speak. I wonder if it will be filmed with Gorbie speaking English or Russian? The fact that the talks collapsed at the end will make for a chance to put some drama in it, but ultimately it was the first step on the road to the end. Thank God we got Gorby and not a hardliner. Although his plans did threaten to collapse Russia completely, and were far ahead of what the Soviet Union was capable of doing, it was better that it end that way than in the chaos of a nuclear war.

10-15-12, 10:30 PM	#6
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Well put, Putin has always been a bit of an enigma to me. He weaves a very clever mask and you're not quite sure just what he's going to do next. He's a shrewd man, and seems to have a long term game to bring Russia back as a major power which has been in the planning since his first term. Certainly though, I agree, something has changed slightly in his third term, the line (already quite hard) has become almost concrete. Before Putin won the elections there was a rumour floating around that he and Medvedev had had a falling out, this makes me wonder if Putin had to turn deeper to the siloviki for assistance in solidifying his third term. Alternatively this could be the beginning of an all out war against the Mafia, he's taken down most organised resistance to government control, he neutralised the oil barons, the monopolists, the moguls, and that just leaves the Mafia, so either he's working with them, or gathering his arsenal to take them down, in which case I wish him luck because he's probably going to need it. Alternatively it could be the groundwork for some form of change of government, after all it's unlikely he could possibly go for a fourth term and expect to maintain some pretense of a democratic voting system. Like you say, only the inner circles really know the answer, it's like watching a chess game when you're only able to see one sides pieces. It's interesting watching the foreign relations of Russia alter over the years since the end of the lost decade, firstly the resumption of the long distance bomber flights, not exactly outlandish, after all we violate their waters quite frequently on the quiet I am sure, but then the whole Litvininko affair, things have cooled quite a bit...although we did do our bit in annoying Russia by giving asylum to several of Putins enemies, including Chechen rebels. I'm sure Putin doesn't want things to dissolve to the point that we get into a new Cold War, but at the same time he wants to push his might in areas he feels he needs to. Syria and Iran, and Russias ties with both do concern me, and I'd wager they concern Washington too, if push comes to shove, will Russia support a nuclear Iran? Will it help defend it? Interesting times, certainly, almost makes one wish for the simpler times of Reagan and Gorbachevs meeting in Reykjavik.

10-16-12, 04:44 PM	#9
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	Russia has always seen itself as regional superpower. This is something that the country had been trying to achieve for ages with mixed success. The 90s was time of transition but the aspiration toward restoring or finally realising this goal was always there. Also decades of communist rule in Russia cant be simply brushed away...Putin probably knew it very well judging by his use of election propaganda and general populistic behavior.