Anti-Air Defences

19Herr_Rapp86 · 06-11-12, 05:16 PM

Do any of your flak cannons, 20mm, 30mm, 3.7cm, or what have you, flak rounds rendered in the game at all, with the little puffs of smoke in the sky when they detonate? I haven't seen any puffs of smoke in the air after firing AA guns but not sure if they come later on in the war or not.

u crank · 06-11-12, 06:32 PM

I may be wrong, but I don't believe any of those rounds, 20mm, 30mm, 3.7cm, would explode unless they hit something.

Sailor Steve · 06-11-12, 07:22 PM

I agree. Shells were either AP Tracer, which was a solid round, or HE Incindiary which exploded on contact. No timed fuses and certainly no proximity fuses. Hence, no puffs of smoke.

19Herr_Rapp86 · 06-11-12, 07:50 PM

Okay so no flakvierlings like on Band of Brothers episode 2 Day of Days where the tracers explode in the sky and make a blanket of shrapnel. Thanks guys. Just was curious,

Sailor Steve · 06-11-12, 09:10 PM

Actually you may be right, but for the wrong reason. This page says that all the rounds would self-destruct after a few seconds, which would leave a telltale puff of smoke - not because they exploded for a shrapnel effect, though that might happen as well, but because the tracer would burn out, destroying the round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Fl...8/Flakvierling

It also says that some tracerless rounds self-destructed. I don't see how they could make a timed fuse that small, but that's what they say.

As for making something like that in a game, it's probably doable in an original game, but I doubt SH3 could be adapted to do that.

19Herr_Rapp86 · 06-11-12, 09:20 PM

Okay. Yeah. That article explains a lot. Very interesting article.

diesel97 · 06-12-12, 02:30 AM

Maybe the artist knows something we don't or just dramatic license ?.

Captain Nemo · 06-12-12, 03:16 AM

Here's a screenshot I took sometime ago which shows shells exploding around aircraft.

Nemo

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

19Herr_Rapp86 · 06-12-12, 05:51 AM

Now that's just slicker than heck!! That's what I was looking for. Whether or not that was rendered in game. I'm assuming those were AA shells, not AP or HE. If you can remember.

Captain Nemo · 06-12-12, 06:24 AM

The action in the screenshot took place off the east coast of England while I was stalking a convoy and the Luftwaffe turned up and attacked it. The escorts immediately opened fire on the attacking planes and that's what you see. Presumably they are AA shells.

Nemo

nutworld · 06-12-12, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually you may be right, but for the wrong reason. This page says that all the rounds would self-destruct after a few seconds, which would leave a telltale puff of smoke - not because they exploded for a shrapnel effect, though that might happen as well, but because the tracer would burn out, destroying the round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Fl...8/Flakvierling

It also says that some tracerless rounds self-destructed. I don't see how they could make a timed fuse that small, but that's what they say.

As for making something like that in a game, it's probably doable in an original game, but I doubt SH3 could be adapted to do that.

wikipedia sure has it's flaws and errors, and there are MANY places that are incorrect, but people ususally TRY very hard to have good information listed.

For me, Wikipedia has become my own person "online" encyclopedia. Great article, I learned much I wasn't aware because of it.

Thanks for sharing

Sailor Steve · 06-12-12, 11:20 AM

Oh yeah. When Wikipedia disagrees with them people tend to say bad things about it, but I've found some things there that aren't available anywhere else. Takeda Shingen is a history professor, and even he said that when you need a quick online source for something Wiki is as good as any, as long as you double-check the references and make sure they have the right information. He has also said that for a true study no online source should be trusted.

Luno · 06-13-12, 01:59 AM

Journals (science, history, etc) are extensively peer reviewed, and are published in print, as well as online.

You can't always trust printed material either though. Writers and editors can and do make mistakes.

I don't know if explosive rounds were standard load-out on subs, but they did exist. Size apparently wasn't much of an issue, as timed fuses were implemented in rounds as small as 20 mm. I'm sure each round was expensive to produce, but they managed.

If by chance they were carried as part of a sub's AA armament, then it would be nice to see a mod which includes them.

Sailor Steve · 06-13-12, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luno

I don't know if explosive rounds were standard load-out on subs, but they did exist. Size apparently wasn't much of an issue, as timed fuses were implemented in rounds as small as 20 mm. I'm sure each round was expensive to produce, but they managed.

Yes they were, but they were designed to explode on contact, not as proximity or timed-fuse shells. One thing that has occured to me just now is the question of aircraft-mounted cannons. The Germans used 20mm and 30mm cannons on their fighters, and they definitely included exploding rounds. I don't recall ever reading about or seeing gun-camera footage of shells that exploded in the air after missing.

I don't know the facts in this case. Does anyone recall reading or seeing anything about this?

Captain Nemo · 06-13-12, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes they were, but they were designed to explode on contact, not as proximity or timed-fuse shells. One thing that has occured to me just now is the question of aircraft-mounted cannons. The Germans used 20mm and 30mm cannons on their fighters, and they definitely included exploding rounds. I don't recall ever reading about or seeing gun-camera footage of shells that exploded in the air after missing.

I don't know the facts in this case. Does anyone recall reading or seeing anything about this?

See http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/weapons15.htm particularly the section on the ZZ 1589 B fuse. Not sure if this particular round was used in aircraft cannon though.

Nemo

06-11-12, 05:16 PM	#1
19Herr_Rapp86 Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ellinwood, Kansas Posts: 260 Downloads: 259 Uploads: 0	Anti-Air Defences Do any of your flak cannons, 20mm, 30mm, 3.7cm, or what have you, flak rounds rendered in the game at all, with the little puffs of smoke in the sky when they detonate? I haven't seen any puffs of smoke in the air after firing AA guns but not sure if they come later on in the war or not. __________________ Kapitanleutnant Rapp, Kommandant U-45

06-11-12, 06:32 PM	#2
u crank Old enough to know better Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Prince Edward Island Posts: 11,744 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 0	I may be wrong, but I don't believe any of those rounds, 20mm, 30mm, 3.7cm, would explode unless they hit something. __________________ “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

06-11-12, 07:22 PM	#3
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I agree. Shells were either AP Tracer, which was a solid round, or HE Incindiary which exploded on contact. No timed fuses and certainly no proximity fuses. Hence, no puffs of smoke. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

06-11-12, 07:50 PM	#4
19Herr_Rapp86 Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ellinwood, Kansas Posts: 260 Downloads: 259 Uploads: 0	Okay so no flakvierlings like on Band of Brothers episode 2 Day of Days where the tracers explode in the sky and make a blanket of shrapnel. Thanks guys. Just was curious, __________________ Kapitanleutnant Rapp, Kommandant U-45

06-11-12, 09:10 PM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Actually you may be right, but for the wrong reason. This page says that all the rounds would self-destruct after a few seconds, which would leave a telltale puff of smoke - not because they exploded for a shrapnel effect, though that might happen as well, but because the tracer would burn out, destroying the round. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Fl...8/Flakvierling It also says that some tracerless rounds self-destructed. I don't see how they could make a timed fuse that small, but that's what they say. As for making something like that in a game, it's probably doable in an original game, but I doubt SH3 could be adapted to do that. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

06-11-12, 09:20 PM	#6
19Herr_Rapp86 Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ellinwood, Kansas Posts: 260 Downloads: 259 Uploads: 0	Okay. Yeah. That article explains a lot. Very interesting article. __________________ Kapitanleutnant Rapp, Kommandant U-45

06-12-12, 02:30 AM	#7
diesel97 Sailor man Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 44 Downloads: 327 Uploads: 0	Maybe the artist knows something we don't or just dramatic license ?. __________________

06-12-12, 03:16 AM	#8
Captain Nemo Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: London, England Posts: 1,144 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Here's a screenshot I took sometime ago which shows shells exploding around aircraft. Nemo Uploaded with ImageShack.us __________________ "I'm afraid there is no disguising the fact that King's obsession with the Pacific and the Battle of Washington cost us dear in the Battle of the Atlantic". Sir John Slessor GCB, DSO, MC, DL AOC-in-C Coastal Command RAF ___________________________________________

06-12-12, 05:51 AM	#9
19Herr_Rapp86 Lieutenant Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ellinwood, Kansas Posts: 260 Downloads: 259 Uploads: 0	Now that's just slicker than heck!! That's what I was looking for. Whether or not that was rendered in game. I'm assuming those were AA shells, not AP or HE. If you can remember. __________________ Kapitanleutnant Rapp, Kommandant U-45

06-12-12, 06:24 AM	#10
Captain Nemo Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: London, England Posts: 1,144 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	The action in the screenshot took place off the east coast of England while I was stalking a convoy and the Luftwaffe turned up and attacked it. The escorts immediately opened fire on the attacking planes and that's what you see. Presumably they are AA shells. Nemo __________________ "I'm afraid there is no disguising the fact that King's obsession with the Pacific and the Battle of Washington cost us dear in the Battle of the Atlantic". Sir John Slessor GCB, DSO, MC, DL AOC-in-C Coastal Command RAF ___________________________________________

06-12-12, 11:20 AM	#12
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Oh yeah. When Wikipedia disagrees with them people tend to say bad things about it, but I've found some things there that aren't available anywhere else. Takeda Shingen is a history professor, and even he said that when you need a quick online source for something Wiki is as good as any, as long as you double-check the references and make sure they have the right information. He has also said that for a true study no online source should be trusted. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

06-13-12, 01:59 AM	#13
Luno Ensign Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 234 Downloads: 123 Uploads: 0	Journals (science, history, etc) are extensively peer reviewed, and are published in print, as well as online. You can't always trust printed material either though. Writers and editors can and do make mistakes. I don't know if explosive rounds were standard load-out on subs, but they did exist. Size apparently wasn't much of an issue, as timed fuses were implemented in rounds as small as 20 mm. I'm sure each round was expensive to produce, but they managed. If by chance they were carried as part of a sub's AA armament, then it would be nice to see a mod which includes them. __________________ Career: Feb. 13, 1942 "Cpt. Johny Goodwood" Porpoise class: USS Shark, SS-174 Patrols: 2 Victories: 1 Merchants (4519 GRT), 0 Warships (0 GRT), 0 Aircraft Sunk with all hands lost.