Map contact turned off

I'm goin' down · 08-18-11, 12:18 AM

I am trying full realism with map contact disabled. I have forsaken the Easy Aob mod for CapnScurvy's OTC, although I believe the two mods have recently been made compatible by a fix to the Easy Aob mod. I have enabled American radar from the beginning of the war, an option offered when you download the OTC mod.

The game is really tough. It is hard to find targets, and when you do, you have to proceed via real time. If the contact is via a radar sighting, sometimes radar picks up an airplane. Then you have to evade, which takes more time. If a ship, you have to plot course, then set up and hope you are not spotted. If you are spotted, the target will begin to zig zag. That makes obtaining a good firing solution difficult.

I wonder how many captains play without map contacts enabled? Are those captains racking up quantity in terms of tonnage? That appears to take a LONG TIME. Are there any good shortcuts to the game with map contact disabled other than the Easy Aob, Nigeis 3D TDC (not a shortcut in my opinion), gutted's solution solver program, and aaronblood Mobo (tough to use with map contacts disabled)? If you have some input, I am interested on your methodology.

Incidentally, I started this sim with no background, using auto targeting. I have graduated to manual targeting and tried most mods and supermods. The only one I gave up on is celestial navigation, which got the better of me. I have mastered all the U.S. supermods and OM/OMEGU/Kiub. This is the final step, I hope.

Flaxpants · 08-18-11, 01:06 AM

Something I have been thinking about attempting soon also.

You say you have to proceed in real time when you find targets- how so?

I'm goin' down · 08-18-11, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flaxpants

Something I have been thinking about attempting soon also.

You say you have to proceed in real time when you find targets- how so?

When your crew reports a contact, you have to get a bearing and range fix. That involves submerging if you do not get a sonar fix on the surface. You have to submerge to approximately 40 feet. Once you get the target's bearng and range, it must be plotted on the Nav Map. Next, you need to get a second and third sonar fix to plot bearing and range, which is recommend when plotting the target's projected course. Performing these tasks can only be done real time, unless you superhuman. If you use the 3D TDC Radar Range mod, the steps are slightly different, but the process is essentially similar. As far as speed, I calculate it when the target is spotted, by meansuring the time it takes the target to cross crosses 0 degrees on the scope, so this is accomplished in real time. Now, it it is time to calculate range and Aob using OTC, also done in real time. OTC is quite accurate, plus working the slide rule mechanism is fun. CapnScurvy outdid himself with this mod, and it is in the same class as the 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit (I spotted a copy during the movie Run Silent, Run Deep) mod, but the later mod has the advantage of being usable in when weather condition or darknet render visibilithy poor to nonexistant. Finally, you manuever for intercept and attack, hopefully remaining undetected.

Convinced? Now it is time to get back to the Caine Mutiny, which is on TCM.

Armistead · 08-18-11, 01:47 AM

It's slow playing for sure, cut the cams and contacts off and it can be tedious. I played like that for a long time, now I mostly play cams off with contacts on, maybe every other patrol cut both off.

I use the radar mod with the 3 minute rule, not perfect, but I can pretty much get close, do my tracking and try to get way ahead. The pain is if you catch a zig leg in which the group changes course, with RSRD this can be about 30-50nms, so the radar mod is a must.

Once I can get a visual, it becomes easier and get my speeds with the scope.

With cams and contacts off, evasion can take hours, you bout have to play real time so you can hear, but it's fun being trapped in the sub.

I would love a mod that didn't show contact icons, but still show sonar lines.

Daniel Prates · 08-18-11, 09:29 AM

TCM? You mean the TCM Channel? Some good stuff there, just the other day I was watching 'sledge hammer'. Classic.

I'mGD is right, it is hard to track targets in anything but TC=1x. There is just too much procedure, regardless of the method you may be using. Of course, I usually speed to 8x, 16x or something like that in-between gatherings.

I must confess I use 'no map contacts' only sporadicly, when I'm feeling quite the hardcore mother*****r.

The way i see it, it sure is top-notch challenging to play in 100% realism, but whereas other realism settings are just plain cheating (like no dud torpedoes etc.), the other two (external views and map contacts) simply improve a little bit your enjoyment of the game experience.

Specially in some mods where map contacts only input info that you collect yourself when it appears on sensors. Basically it is a manual-labour saving measure.

I actually always thought that 'external views' is more of a realism-tweaker than 'no contacts', because you feel tempted to use it to better assess threats. I think that it is only fair to use it in after-action situatinos, just to get a feel of the hell you've just raised. Or in mid-cruise. Other than that, its plain cheating.

razark · 08-18-11, 11:00 AM

I like playing with map contacts off. It's much more fun for me, dealing with the challenge of taking data off the instruments, watching a group of "X" marks crawl across the map. Trying to fit a course line to a small group of marks, getting speed from it. Trying to figure out where to intercept. Does the observation fit with my projection? Does the TDC match with the observation? Taking a reading that puts him off the projected course, and taking a reading a few minutes later that confirms he zigged, starting the process over again. I like that challenge.

But it's too damn much work. I hate having to take a reading, and then switch to the map and draw it out, plot the marking. It slows down the pace of the game. I find myself pausing the game to plot the target's location, and leaving the game paused while I go check a few websites, or watch "just a little bit more" of whatever movie I've got running.

So turn on map contacts. I still have to determine and enter the data into the game myself. But I just go to the map, mark the position, wait 3 minutes, mark another position. I've got him dead on with range, speed, and course with no errors. There's no challenge, it's simply a matter of moving in front of him, waiting until he's at just the right spot, and firing torpedoes.

I love this game and hate it at the same time. Map contacts off is a chore. Map contacts on is a bore. There should be some middle ground, where I take the readings, and send it to the plotting party. When I look at the map, I should see marks where I sent the bearing and range, so I can play connect the dots. If I muck up the range or the bearing, there should be a mark in the wrong place. Maybe the plotter lacks experience, or misheard me, or hasn't had enough sleep; toss in a bit of an error factor for him, too. I'd love to have the TDC target marker on the Nav map, or be able to draw on the attack map. Either of those options would open up a huge possibility to avoid what is, for me, the most annoying part of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I would love a mod that didn't show contact icons, but still show sonar lines.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=2789

Armistead · 08-18-11, 11:09 AM

Think that mod is for air contacts only, actually show planes when contacts are off. I prefer one that gets rid of ship icons, but you still have sonar lines. Mainly, evasion can take forever dived since sonar has no way of really telling you anything, with lines you can get a better picture and use a lil TC to hurry things when needed.

razark · 08-18-11, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Think that mod is for air contacts only, actually show planes when contacts are off. I prefer one that gets rid of ship icons, but you still have sonar lines. Mainly, evasion can take forever dived since sonar has no way of really telling you anything, with lines you can get a better picture and use a lil TC to hurry things when needed.

You can replace the dots that show the airplane contacts, but it does remove the ship contacts. The line graphics used for the sonar contacts are also used for the torpedo track and PK marker on the attack map, so they "accidentally" got left in.

I'm goin' down · 08-18-11, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razark

I like playing with map contacts off. It's much more fun for me, dealing with the challenge of taking data off the instruments, watching a group of "X" marks crawl across the map. Trying to fit a course line to a small group of marks, getting speed from it. Trying to figure out where to intercept. Does the observation fit with my projection? Does the TDC match with the observation? Taking a reading that puts him off the projected course, and taking a reading a few minutes later that confirms he zigged, starting the process over again. I like that challenge.

But it's too damn much work. I hate having to take a reading, and then switch to the map and draw it out, plot the marking. It slows down the pace of the game. I find myself pausing the game to plot the target's location, and leaving the game paused while I go check a few websites, or watch "just a little bit more" of whatever movie I've got running.

So turn on map contacts. I still have to determine and enter the data into the game myself. But I just go to the map, mark the position, wait 3 minutes, mark another position. I've got him dead on with range, speed, and course with no errors. There's no challenge, it's simply a matter of moving in front of him, waiting until he's at just the right spot, and firing torpedoes.

Damn good summary of the dilemma.

sharkbit · 08-18-11, 12:52 PM

The problem I've always had with "map contacts off/on" is it is too extreme.
With them on, you get GPS like positions of your targets.
With them off, your workload goes way up. Not only do you have to conn your sub, you have to do all the plotting and inputting data into the TDC as well, where a real sub had various people doing those duties.

Some nice middle ground would be nice.

I know there is an "Assisted Plotting" mod for SH3. While not perfect, it does get away from the two extremes. I think I've read where it may work or has been adapted for SH4, but I seem to remember issues with it if used in SH4-I'm not sure.

Personally, I play with contacts on in both SH3 and SH4. I don't think I'm quite ready to play with them off just yet. One day perhaps.

Daniel Prates · 08-18-11, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Damn good summary of the dilemma.

Maybe the solution would be removing the constantly-updating contacts.

Like this:

1 - Option 'no contact update' on: you're on your own, period.

2 - Option off: all sensor stations could have an extra button, where you order it's operator to input current bearing (or range and bearing, like for instance with radar). In that moment and ONLY THEN, one single marking input would appear on the map, identified by station and a number (as you order more updates, the following contacts would receive progressive numbers so you don't get lost). To make it realistic, there could be inacuracies on the drawing of the map marker, and perhaps a minimum hiatus between markings.

That would mean only that your crewmen would be feeding in the navigator with sporadic data, which is both realistic, and prevents the boredom of doing everything yourself.

What do you guys thing? is it doable?

I'm goin' down · 08-18-11, 04:54 PM

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