Tokyo teacher embattled over war history

[bradclark1]

Tokyo teacher embattled over war history.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20051122/wl_csm/odispute_1

[Kapitan]

i think the cell next to me is free

[P_Funk]

Amazing. We really are starting to slowly forget the lessons of World War 2. What alarms me is how the media is onside with the government's policy characterizing this teacher as the villain. Reminds of the very fascism which lead so many of our parents and grandparents to take up arms. Not a good development.

[Konovalov]

This rise in Nationalism seems to be a worrying trend. I share your sentiments P_Funk.

[tycho102]

There's more than one way to look at this issue.

On one side, there's the Nanking massacre and the Phillipines and Marshall Islands and Korea. Bataan death march and Pearl Harbor. On the other side, at some point you have to drop your baggage to be able to go one with your life. This goes for a father who couldn't save his son in the swift flowing river, the mother who was hooked on crack and beat her daughter unconscious, and it goes for an entire nation.

I disagree with how Japan is going about it, though. The "victimization" route. They should teach the history as it occured, and just simply say "we do things differently now, because this way is superior."

I read about the Trail of Tears and Thanksgiving. I've read about Cortez and Pizzaro. Native Indians were a hell of a long way from pacifism. They were not the peaceful, tranquil civilizations that I learned in public school. They might have had impressive cultures and languages, but at the end of the day, they were just as brutal as we were. I know what we did, and I know why we did it. That goes for American Indians, Hawai'ians, Eskimos, Tories, and Japanese. Japan was just as brutal as those two bombs we dropped on them. If I was given a second chance, if I could do things differently, I'd have dropped ten of them on December 6th.

I just view "our" way as being superior. That is why we won the war. Doesn't make us right, and doesn't make them wrong.

I won't even start on the comparison with Muslims.

[I-25]

i honestly think its bull! when you look at it the americans did cause the war by the embargo they placed on japan, and peral harbour? well if the still say it was a suprise attack thats just a bunch of BULL, how could a 10+ ship TF whit 5 carriers get right under the americans noses and strike 2 times at the same place on the same day and get away with is without a sratch!

also lets not for get that most of the ships at pearl at the time were VERY old and out dated and that the best ships had cast off the night before!
and the fact that the miget sub that was sunk by the USS ward 1 hr before anything happend was COMLPETELY ignored at the command center.

[joea]

Originally Posted by I-25

i honestly think its bull! when you look at it the americans did cause the war by the embargo they placed on japan, and peral harbour? well if the still say it was a suprise attack thats just a bunch of BULL, how could a 10+ ship TF whit 5 carriers get right under the americans noses and strike 2 times at the same place on the same day and get away with is without a sratch!

also lets not for get that most of the ships at pearl at the time were VERY old and out dated and that the best ships had cast off the night before!
and the fact that the miget sub that was sunk by the USS ward 1 hr before anything happend was COMLPETELY ignored at the command center.

You're an imbecile. Did the US FORCE Japan to attack China or invade Korea? That's like the folks sying the Brits and French started the war in Europe because they declared war in Germany after the latter ATTACKED Poland.

Have you heard of unit 731?

So the allies started the war...

Point is Japan was allied with the NAZIS and given the way the latter were rolling over Russia and had overrun Europe and now their Allies were menacing Asia seems a smart thing to do to me.

PH I've already talked this to death you want to read the same article I sent some months ago to a couple of other idiots on the forum.

Let's look at your arguments anyway...the carriers were out deleivering stuff..

The Enterprise was SUPPOSED TO BE IN PEARL ON THE 7TH BUT WAS DELAYED BY BAD WEATHER. Did FDR make the storm on purpose hmm???

Ships left were old, hmm only the BBs and some of the cruisers, cause none of the NEW BBs WERE READY YET. The Jap battleline was just as old (Yamato and Musashi had not commisioned yet). the DDs were mixed some newer some older, same thing with the CAs None of the new ships were ready yet. The only really modern ships in the USn at the time were the carriers anyway. The huge 2 ocean fleet was still under construction or the planning.

Again I repeat and repeat, the US govt. had no way of being sure that Hitler would declare war, none for sure.

In short, I thought you were OK but I see you are just another damn Axis apologist like Dead Man's Hand and a few others.

Just a last question: forget the USA, what do you have against the Chinese or Koreans? Did Japan have a right to invade them? Why do you think they are pissed? Don't bring up what others have done (like the Euros screwing China too, I think that also sucks).

[I-25]

man your really throwing the book at me!

jajaja look i have nothing at all against the chinese or korean any yes i have heard of that unit the "biological weapons reserch" if youknow what i mean (trying out biological stuff on korean people).

im no nazi supporter BUT i defend the japs like hell, they went trough all kinde of crap (fire strom in tokio, 2 nukes, kamikazes and much more!)and look at them now!!! now thats devoted people! look i live in mexico we have never been in a big war for over 100 years and look at us were a piece of crap! (well the 201 squadron fought in WW2 but didnt do much!)and the japs piked upfrom NOTHING AT ALL in 60 years! but everybody throws it at the axis forces, i understand the allyes won the war in not the history books wold be much differnent! , like i said screw the nazis but the japs?! not when im around! ill defend them till i drop!!!!

and one more thing.....

the IJN Yamato sunk on april 7 1945 and took MORE lives down in that one ship than all the dead in the pearl attack!

[TteFAboB]

Chinese nationalism was originally viewed nicely and influenced by their government, then it got out of hand and now it actually threatens them, some Chinese leaders already understand this but others don't see the danger and continue to fuel the fire, nationalism is a very powerfull tool, it can bring benefits when it's under control, but most of the time it is used for less decent purposes and it grows beyond reason. However, Chinese and North Korean nationalism is unjustified and so are their claims against Japan, Chinese history books and schools teaches the most ludicrous shape of history to be seen today anywhere in the world! In Japan, a free democracy, anyone can buy different books, read different authors and search for multiple points of view including foreign sources if they don't agree with what they were taught in school, not so in China, in Japan anyone can choose to see the past as they see fit, not so in China, you have to eat forced nationalistic propaganda like it or not.

This phenomenon is by no means limited to Japan and China or Koreas, we have revisionism everywhere, in Europe, in America, you name it, go to a library and pick a communist book, I guess communism revisionism is universal so it's a good example, but you will find unlimited more regional examples if you look for it.

Native South Americans were mentioned in this thread, in South America history had been taught completely wrong about them for DECADES! We were taught outright pure FANTASY! How could such blatant lies get into the public shcool system for entire generations?

But these historical myths crumble with time, we're getting rid of everything myth by myth, in our free countries you can only fool so many people for so long, then it's over, but do you think that stops the phenomenon? Today, looking at the nation-wide High School yearly test I found 3 anti-american and revisionist questions, so we get over the past lies but new ones pop-up?

Without forgetting in our democracies anyone is free to look at history as they want, we must present the truth to the public, we must show another view and the intelligent, reasonable, open-minded, free people will choose what they want to believe in, and to this I add, the true history is usually much more plausible than pure propaganda crap.

So, if we already have people concerned in Japan, if we have authors willing to present a honest vision of history, the false versions will have no chance when someone gets to read the two versions, the only way it could be of concern is if there was only one trend, one view, one mind-set, but for that to happen you would need totalitarian measures from the government, like what is done in China and North Korea.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by I-25

i honestly think its bull! when you look at it the americans did cause the war by the embargo they placed on japan, and peral harbour? well if the still say it was a suprise attack thats just a bunch of BULL, how could a 10+ ship TF whit 5 carriers get right under the americans noses and strike 2 times at the same place on the same day and get away with is without a sratch!

They hadn't perfected the Keyhole satellite system yet.

[XabbaRus]

Actaully Japan has had and still has a lot of issues relating to the war and its conduct, this article being a case in point. I know quite a few people who have lived in Japan and the joke we have in the UK about Germans "Don't mention the war" Well in Japan that seems to really apply from what I have been told.

anyway I go to bed now.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Actaully Japan has had and still has a lot of issues relating to the war and its conduct, this article being a case in point. I know quite a few people who have lived in Japan and the joke we have in the UK about Germans "Don't mention the war" Well in Japan that seems to really apply from what I have been told.

anyway I go to bed now.

I think that it's defeat is seen as more of an embarrassment to them and not an acknowledgement of wrongdoing.
I'm curious to see what becomes of Japan as the population increases and space gets to be an issue.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

I think that it's defeat is seen as more of an embarrassment to them and not an acknowledgement of wrongdoing.
I'm curious to see what becomes of Japan as the population increases and space gets to be an issue.

I think you hit the nail there....when a person commits suicide instead of accepting defeat and willing to drag an entire country down with it is a pretty intense belief system.I liken it to the intensity of the Muslims now a days who will go down to the last...throwing all in no matter the cost.

The shame of defeat is what can not be boure it seems...I wonder if the story would be told accuratley if they would have drove the infidel Americans into oblivion?...I think so.

A quote from my favorite movie Glory...."Ain't nobody clean....Be nice to get clean....how do we do that?...we anni up and kick in like men!"

[joea]

Originally Posted by I-25

man your really throwing the book at me!

jajaja look i have nothing at all against the chinese or korean any yes i have heard of that unit the "biological weapons reserch" if youknow what i mean (trying out biological stuff on korean people).

Damn right I threw the book at you..."defending the Japs" means defending what they did in Korea and in China which were the reasons for the war, at the same time they were in their "noble yet doomed" fight agaisnt the USA they (at least some in the Japanese military,not the fine Japanese people) were laying waste to parts of Asia. Really like the Nazis in fighting Stalin ruined the fight against Soviet communism because they did not offer anything better, even worse in some cases, Japan ruined their fight against Western Colonialism because they sought to become what they replaced, even worse in many cases. Finland is an exception among the Axis (and they were not an official member) because they were involved in a just defensive fight against an agressive neighbour and did NOT participate in the Nazi criminal enterprise.

The problem is folks often look at the Pacific War in isolation as just a US-Japan war (and what about the coastwatchers, Commonwealth forces Filipino resistance etc.) and of course for example the US lost far fewer civilians than the Japanese. I myself question the firebombings and the atomic bombs for example. Yet such was the case also in Europe, in fact Germany did not directly attack the US (though I believe in the long run the US and Canada would have been). However this is silly, the US did not of course fight alone in Europe, as our Russian and British friends know...the Brits lost a considerable number of civilians to bombings (less than the Germans but if you compare a Lancaster to a Ju-88 and how they were used not a surprise, if Germany had 4 engine bombers) to say nothing of the Russians and others. The difference with the Pacific is those who suffered most from the Japanese aggresion were not able to resist effectively, China in particular. China was divided and both factions, Communist and Nationalist were as worried about the other as the Japanese. Thus people forget about the rest of Asia including many Americans but I think it is a mistake though to look at this in isolation the way you do I-25, Just as you just can't understand terrorism without its context today. Thus I find your attitude illogical.

Also, while imo the USA did the right thing (for intelligent selfish not really alturistic reasons) by rebuilding Japan and the Western half of Germany as well as Western Europe, kudos to the German (East Germany actually became one of the most advanced East Bloc countries though I am sure they did not get assistance from the USSR) and Japanese people for picking themselves up and surpassing what they were before. Heck Japan now dominates Asia in a way they never could have before (though China and some others are coming up fast). I also like and admire many Axis military figures, Yamamoto, Rommel, Sakai, Galland, etc. and they had cool machines. I just dislike what they were used for.

Too bad the winners of WWII did not learn from the losers in this respect.

One last thought...Japan is not the same nation today...but they would do well to rexamine their history, and no one at Subsim can defend what this teacher went through. At least in the West we can (or could ) examine our dark spots, though sadly in the US today it seems difficult to not appear as the great patriot crying "America f$%^ yea" (anyone watch "Team America"?) which always did right. As a historian I defend freedom of scholarship.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by joea

One last thought...Japan is not the same nation today...but they would do well to rexamine their history, and no one at Subsim can defend what this teacher went through. At least in the West we can (or could ) examine our dark spots, though sadly in the US today it seems difficult to not appear as the great patriot crying "America f$%^ yea" (anyone watch "Team America"?) which always did right. As a historian I defend freedom of scholarship.

I totally agree here with what you have said.