Modeling of RWR and Radar.

[lbhskier37]

I have a question about how RWR and Radar are modeled in this game. I am currently running the 16km vis mod, and in the readme it says this:

Metox: 4km left alone. Good for heavy fog.
Borkum: 5km to 8km. Good through medium fog distance.
Naxos: 8km to 12km. Good through light fog distance.
Tunis: 10km to 16km. Good through max visual range.

So is this saying Metox will only warn you of something with radar that is closer than 4km? RWRs should be able to warn you of radar before the radar can actually pick you up. The benefit of the later RWRs should be that they can detect later war radar. Do the RWRs in the game make no distinction between radar type? Is there any way to model the RWR correctly? RWRs were hugely important in real life and the fact that they are modeled so weird in this game just gets me. Is this a limitation that cant be fixed?

[oRGy]

They can be set to any range you please, and the values are in sensors.dat.

I'd personally go for the most realistic values, but I followed Jungman's values for SH3. If you have better ones, please post them...

[lbhskier37]

I see that you can set ranges, but is there any way to set it up so that Metox can't detect the latewar centemetric stuff, but the latewar RWRs can?

[Sturm]

Here is some comparison of original RWR values vs 16km vis mod and real life.

Original game values, 16km vis values, real life
FuMB-1 Metox, 4km, 4km, didn't find any information
FuMB-10 Borkum, 5km, 8km, "limited range"
FuMB-7 Naxos, 7.5km, 12km, 8km
FuMB-26 Tunis, 10km, 16km, 25-50km

I didn't find any info about Metox and only thing I could find about Borkum was "limited range" so I think the 5km is pretty much correct.

Here are my suggestions to RWR ranges and I'm going to use these one myself.

FuMB-1 Metox, 4km
FuMB-10 Borkum, 5km
FuMB-7 Naxos, 8km
FuMB-26 Tunis, 18km, I think 25km is a little too much...

Here are original SH3 radar ranges. I think these one are pretty much correct except didin't find info about FuMO-391.

FuMO-29, 7.5km, 7.5km
FuMO-30, 7.5km, 7.5km
FuMO-61, 8km, 7-10km
FuMO-64, 8km, 7-10km
FuMO-391, 10km

Originally Posted by lbhskier37

I see that you can set ranges, but is there any way to set it up so that Metox can't detect the latewar centemetric stuff, but the latewar RWRs can?

I think there's no way to change this.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Sturm

Here are my suggestions to RWR ranges and I'm going to use these one myself.

FuMB-1 Metox, 4km
FuMB-10 Borkum, 5km
FuMB-7 Naxos, 8km
FuMB-26 Tunis, 18km, I think 25km is a little too much...

Would you mind posting that file when you finish modifying it?

[Sturm]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Would you mind posting that file when you finish modifying it?

Here you go http://koti.mbnet.fi/sh3/files/Sensors.7z. This one is same file that was included in Atmosphere mod v1.0 except it has RWR ranges mentioned above and it also includes Sergbutos Snorkel wake and reflection fix.

[oRGy]

Interesting... I might adjust those sensor ranges, though surely there must be more detailed info on the specs of the early radars?

[Sturm]

Here is few links that I found

http://www.uboat.net/technical/
http://www.uboataces.com/ref-equipment.shtml
http://www.radarworld.org/radarwar.pdf

This one is in German http://www.ww2technik.de/dsub_vert.htm

If someone knows other links where we can find info of RWR and radar systems used in U-boats, please post them here.

[rulle34]

Originally Posted by Sturm

Here is some comparison of original RWR values vs 16km vis mod and real life.

Original game values, 16km vis values, real life
FuMB-1 Metox, 4km, 4km, didn't find any information
FuMB-10 Borkum, 5km, 8km, "limited range"
FuMB-7 Naxos, 7.5km, 12km, 8km
FuMB-26 Tunis, 10km, 16km, 25-50km

I didn't find any info about Metox and only thing I could find about Borkum was "limited range" so I think the 5km is pretty much correct.

Here are my suggestions to RWR ranges and I'm going to use these one myself.

FuMB-1 Metox, 4km
FuMB-10 Borkum, 5km
FuMB-7 Naxos, 8km
FuMB-26 Tunis, 18km, I think 25km is a little too much...

Here are original SH3 radar ranges. I think these one are pretty much correct except didin't find info about FuMO-391.

FuMO-29, 7.5km, 7.5km
FuMO-30, 7.5km, 7.5km
FuMO-61, 8km, 7-10km
FuMO-64, 8km, 7-10km
FuMO-391, 10km

I think there's no way to change this.

@Sturm
Don't confuse settings made in 16 km visibility mod and realistic settings.
It's a combination of more accurate settings at the same time it's compensating for the bigger skydome. This values is of course not unchangeable, but just so know the background of the figures. They should be tested properly and from playtests changed if needed. I haven't had time to test this values, been more focused on night spottings recently :P

[Sturm]

Originally Posted by rulle34

@Sturm
Don't confuse settings made in 16 km visibility mod and realistic settings.
It's a combination of more accurate settings at the same time it's compensating for the bigger skydome. This values is of course not unchangeable, but just so know the background of the figures. They should be tested properly and from playtests changed if needed. I haven't had time to test this values, been more focused on night spottings recently :P

Yes I'm aware that 16km vis mod RWR ranges compensate longer visibilty. But if Naxos could detect radar signals only from 8km then 8km it will be for me.

I like realism...

[rulle34]

@Sturm. I don't think it's compensating for the longer visibility. It's compensating for the bigger world that was made! Strectching the world makes bigger values to compensate. I dont think 1km=1km if you understand what I mean

[Sturm]

Originally Posted by rulle34

@Sturm. I don't think it's compensating for the longer visibility. It's compensating for the bigger world that was made! Strectching the world makes bigger values to compensate. I dont think 1km=1km if you understand what I mean

Well never thought it in that way. :hmm:

You get bigger world by changing earthradius and longer visibility by changing fogdistances from scene.dat, right?

So I can see destroyer from 8km but not detect radar signals from 8km even if RWR range is set to 8km? Are those sensor range values all ********d up?

I'm confused. Need to test it... later, have to go to sleep.

[rulle34]

Originally Posted by Sturm

Well never thought it in that way. :hmm:

You get bigger world by changing earthradius and longer visibility by changing fogdistances from scene.dat, right?

So I can see destroyer from 8km but not detect radar signals from 8km even if RWR range is set to 8km? Are those sensor range values all ********d up?

I'm confused. Need to test it... later, have to go to sleep.

I don't know if changing fogvalues in scene.dat gives any improvements in visibility, perhaps in fog.
In visibilty mod changes for visibility is in sensors.dat.

And yes, if you have a ship within spottingrange, RWR will not go off with stockvalues set for RWR. That's why they are changed in visibility mod. And I fully agree, this visbilitything behaves sometimes very unlogic

[Sturm]

I finally had chance to test this values. It looks like the radar is working like it should be, with FuMO-30 got contact from C2 at 7500m.

With Naxos max. range set to 8000m I got "Radar signals detected" from range as far as 11700m. So it looks like 8km isn't 8km in RWR ranges or there is some randomization, who knows.

In the readme from vis mod it says

Vis mod has fog at 600m, 4500m, 9000m for heavy, medium, and light fog.

Metox: 4km left alone. Good for heavy fog.
Borkum: 5km to 8km. Good through medium fog distance.
Naxos: 8km to 12km. Good through light fog distance.
Tunis: 10km to 16km. Good through max visual range.

My question is what are those ranges in SH3 when used 16km vis mod?

Hmm, just looked the sensors.cfg and found that there is also parameters for Radar warning, maybe changing this Radar Warning range factor=1 would solve the problem? :hmm: